Just Where Does Houston's Young LB Corps Rank In The NFL?
I am pretty much an offensive side of the football kind of guy. So this is going to be new territory for me. So take it easy on me if I forget someone or I botch the whole thing altogether.
With the announcement of the 2010 Pro Bowlers yesterday, two Texans linebackers made the cut. DeMeco Ryans and rookie Brian Cushing. It got me to wondering where Houston lines up to the rest of the league in their linebacking corps. I did some quick research (and know I left out some really talented groups; like I said, Defense isn't my forte) and came up with some quick numbers of some of the top groups of linebackers in the league. I'm not really a stat guy. I never have been. So these are just some quick numbers to briefly compare:
(These are combined stats through 15 games for the 2009 season)
| Team | LB Core | Solo Tackles | Sacks | Forced Fumbles | Interceptions |
| Steelers | Woodley, Harrison & Farrior | 168 | 24.5 | 7 | 1 |
| Bears | Urlacher*, Briggs & Hillenmeyer | 146 | 5 | 4 | 2 |
| Jets | Scott, Pace & Harris | 190 | 13.5 | 5 | 2 |
| Cowboys | Ware, James & Brooking | 195 | 15 | 6 | 0 |
| Ravens | Lewis, Suggs & Gooden | 167 | 6.5 | 3 | 0 |
| Chargers | Merriman, Cooper & Phillips | 144 | 11 | 10 | 0 |
| Texans | Ryans, Diles & Cushing | 210 | 5 | 4 | 4 |
(* The Bears numbers are deflated due to Brian Urlacher being out for the entire season. But he still needs to be in the debate.)
As previously stated, I am sure I left some others out, but this is what I could think of as far as dominating LB corps go.
Some big names in that group. Obviously Pittsburgh and Dallas get after the quarterback much more efficiently than Houston (but who doesn't?). As long as Ray Lewis is still in the game, Baltimore is always going to be under consideration in this topic. I don't like the guy personally, but that doesn't change the fact that he is a future Hall of Famer. Bart Scott jumping to New York certainly helped shore up a LB corps that was already pretty solid. With the Steelers' shaky secondary this season, their trio of LBs' numbers went down, with their Safeties and Corners compiling huge tackle totals. San Diego has about as solid of a group as you're going to find in the league, even if many question Merriman after being busted for roids in the past.
But how does the combo of DeMeco Ryans, Zac Diles & Brian Cushing really stack up to these juggernauts? You have to take into consderation that they are young. Ryans is 25, Diles 24 and Cushing is only 22. The thought that they haven't even hit their prime yet is staggering. The fact that Diles, who is certainly the most underrated of the trio, is a 7th round pick is spectacular. Ryans, who just got his 2nd Pro Bowl nod, is as solid as any LB in the game. And I am sure this scares the hell out of Rick Smith. Seriously, pay the man, Rick. A Defensive Rookie of The Year in 2006, he led the NFL in tackles with 156. The rookie production of Brian Cushing is stunningly similar to Ryans' rookie campaign, and Cushing is the current favorite to follow Ryans as a Defensive Rookie of The Year in 2009. He is the lone rookie representative for the AFC in the 2010 Pro Bowl.
So, in my opinion, they may not be the best trio of linebackers in the NFL yet. But they are young. And they haven't come close to peaking yet. Let's hope the team finds a way to keep them together for the majority of their careers.
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Comments
A quick thought
(while admittedly only being 1/3 of the way through): 5 of those teams are either a straight 3-4 or a hybrid that is primarily a 3-4. That is inherently going to make their numbers higher.
Jim Caldwell delenda est.
by MDC on Dec 30, 2009 10:20 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Good point
This is particularly true for sack totals as some of these teams use the OLB as a down lineman / outside rusher in specific situations
You can't fix Dumb or being a VYFB
by Texans-Brocos on Dec 30, 2009 10:22 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Like I said
Defense isn’t my strong suit.
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by Mike Kerns on Dec 30, 2009 10:22 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
No, I understand
Just thought it worth mentioning. I do think that our linebackers as a unit are good, but I don’t know that I’d put them above Detroit’s or Cinci’s in terms of talent at all three spots. Good post, though, in that agree with your conclusion that they are good and young and, therefore, could still get better.
Jim Caldwell delenda est.
by MDC on Dec 30, 2009 10:24 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks for bringing up Detroit's LB corps.
People don’t really talk about how talented they are because they’re the Lions.
by Jordann on Dec 30, 2009 11:34 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
So Calvin Johnson isn't talented?
Jim Caldwell delenda est.
by MDC on Dec 30, 2009 11:36 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
He is.
But when people hear about the Lions, four things come to their mind. Matt Millen 0-16, they suck, and Megatron.
People fail to realize that they have talent in other petitions too. Stafford and Petitgrew are rookies that will make a difference in their team with more experience. And I would give up my left nut to have a rookie like Delmas playing alongside Pollard.
by Jordann on Dec 30, 2009 12:07 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Work always get in the way of football.
petitions positions.
by Jordann on Dec 30, 2009 12:08 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Ah, my bad
I missed the sarcasm in your first post.
Jim Caldwell delenda est.
by MDC on Dec 30, 2009 12:14 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Upon further review
I’m a retard. I re-read your post and you said “People” but I read it as “Please.” No idea why, but I’m going to blame the beer.
Jim Caldwell delenda est.
by MDC on Dec 30, 2009 12:19 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Second best defense.
Can only be trumped by the Chewbacca Defense IMHO.
by Jordann on Dec 30, 2009 12:23 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Rec'd
for admission of being a retard
If the Treasury Secretary doesn't have to pay taxes, then why do I?
by Shake on Dec 30, 2009 3:19 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
This is news?
I also fully admit that water is wet, the sky is blue, and Jim Caldwell is an asshole.
Jim Caldwell delenda est.
by MDC on Dec 30, 2009 6:13 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Also
Diles is only “underrated” in the sense that people don’t rate his lack of talent highly enough. I would trade my left kidney for us to sign Derrick Johnson this offseason. (Thankfully, even after we win our first playoff game, the ban on final 8 teams signing free agents in the uncapped year won’t stop us here because we’ll lose Dunta, god willing.)
Jim Caldwell delenda est.
by MDC on Dec 30, 2009 10:23 AM CST reply actions 2 recs
I've never seen this kinda optimism
Especially from you, brother…
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by Mike Kerns on Dec 30, 2009 10:26 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I have to stay optimistic about this
because I am skipping my wife’s grandpa’s 90th birthday party to watch the game and I’ll feel like an asshole if we don’t get in. Plus, I was so down after the second Jags’ loss that to still have a chance at the postseason has kind of blown my mind.
Also, I’m drinking right now. Really.
Jim Caldwell delenda est.
by MDC on Dec 30, 2009 10:30 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
And I'm jealous right now.
Really.
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by Mike Kerns on Dec 30, 2009 10:33 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Alcohol makes people more insightful.
It’s been scientifically proven.
by Jordann on Dec 30, 2009 12:19 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
And, about Zac
7th round pick. He plays way above his “lack of talent” for a 7th round pick.
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by Mike Kerns on Dec 30, 2009 10:27 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Fair enough
But, much like with fantasy football, after you’re on the team and we’re actually playing games, what round the guy was drafted in doesn’t mean much to me. Either you are a good player, or you aren’t. To my eyes, Diles is not. He did have one nice play last week, though, and had two TFL against the Jets, so people tend to remember those for some reason and think of him as the scrappy 7th rounder who could.
Jim Caldwell delenda est.
by MDC on Dec 30, 2009 10:29 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I think Zack
has been excelent, he plays very well on an island out there at WILL. I don’t see him running all over the field making plays but that’s not really his job his job is go cover the flat and to make sure running plays dont get to the edge on that side. He has done a great job at this. No he isn’t as good as Ryans and Cush but how good are the 3rd LBs on most teams?
You can't fix Dumb or being a VYFB
by Texans-Brocos on Dec 30, 2009 10:35 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Exactly
Remember how many big runs were given up when Adibi was out there?
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by Mike Kerns on Dec 30, 2009 10:56 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I can think of one
The AP run in the preseason. Adibi lost his gig after that play. Yet the Jets and Titans both ran a similar play with similar results, one at Diles and one at Cushing, and no one is pointing to those runs (not to mention some other big plays each has allowed) as proof that they are not good.
Jim Caldwell delenda est.
by MDC on Dec 30, 2009 11:03 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I think he's been ok
Which is as good as he’ll ever be. Considering how hoss-like our other LBs have been, and considering how Kubes loves to stick with under performing players way longer than he should, I don’t think we’ll look to upgrade at that position in this upcoming draft.
Proudly supporting the Qatar National Falconry Team since December 6, 2009.
by tehGrindCrusher on Jan 2, 2010 10:03 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I agree that we probably won't,
but I still think we should.
Jim Caldwell delenda est.
by MDC on Jan 2, 2010 12:14 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Not really
He’s taken awful angles all season. Teams throw right at him, for obvious reasons, and he’s yet to do much of anything to adjust to that. He benefits immensely from Mario playing the run so well, as it gets him off the hook pretty regularly (i.e. Mario, not Diles, is the one more of than not making sure the running play doesn’t get the edge). For proof, look at how few TFLs he has then compare that to the number of tackles 5-7 yards down field he has.
People are giving him credit for stuff like you’ve mentioned — as in, he’s just doing what’s asked — but with no basis for it. You can’t credit a guy with playing well when (a) he’s NOT covering the flat well (or making plays in the flat with any regularity) and (b) it’s obvious that opposing teams go right at him when possible yet he’s not the one making the plays when they do (Pollard, Mario, DeMeco, Quin are all making those tackles in the 0-5 yd range far more often than Diles is). He has no passes defensed, no sacks, averages less than 3 tackles per game… basically, everything, both numbers-wise and if you actually watch him play, points to him not doing much of anything. Yet people have somehow convinced themselves that he’s not just ok, but playing “very well.” It makes no sense.
Then again, it made no sense last year when people acted like he was playing very well at SLB, either.
As for the “how good are the 3rd LBs,” that’s the other “argument” people keep throwing out there, and it misses the point. For that argument to be valid, you’d have to assume that Diles is as good as the typical 3rd LB, which he’s not. THAT is the point — not that anyone expects Diles to be as good as DeMeco, but that he’s bad enough that he could be upgraded with your theoretical “3rd LB” off most other teams.
Jim Caldwell delenda est.
by MDC on Dec 30, 2009 11:02 AM CST up reply actions 2 recs
I'm Enjoying This Debate
You should devote an entire post to it on DGDB&D.
Oh, wait…
Looking forward to a day when being a Texans fan doesn't mean that April is the highlight of my season...
by Tim on Dec 30, 2009 11:08 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I thought I'd do it here
to make up for the lack of posting by 50% of your named writers, not to mention the dearth of words from you or Jake. I’m a helper. It’s what I do.
Jim Caldwell delenda est.
by MDC on Dec 30, 2009 11:15 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Who are these people you speak of?
Are they new employees?
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by Mike Kerns on Dec 30, 2009 11:28 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I Think
That was a dig at all of us, with a special extra shot across the bow at BFD, DreKeem, and Riott.
Looking forward to a day when being a Texans fan doesn't mean that April is the highlight of my season...
by Tim on Dec 30, 2009 12:49 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Funny.
MDC just flat out tells me that I suck. No need to be cryptic…
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by Mike Kerns on Dec 30, 2009 2:42 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Well, he said 50% of the named writers.
And we all know that Riott and DreKeem haven’t posted anything in a while. So I doubt it was a dig on you Mike.
by Jordann on Dec 30, 2009 2:50 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah
He just messages me on Gmail to tell me I suck.
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by Mike Kerns on Dec 30, 2009 2:53 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm just kidding
He hasn’t done that…YET.
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by Mike Kerns on Dec 30, 2009 3:27 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
*hangs head*
I know. /sigh/
A Texans fan. Really. No, I'm not kidding.
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by bigfatdrunk on Dec 30, 2009 5:21 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Definitely not arguing that
I am still saying that I never expected Diles to even make the team after being a 7th round pick. And for what he is, I think he is a good player. Not irreplaceable.
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by Mike Kerns on Dec 30, 2009 11:29 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I can live with that assessment
with the slight change of “good” to “adequate.” But I think upgrading that position should be on the team’s radar as it evaluates free agents. *cough*Derrick Johnson*cough*
Jim Caldwell delenda est.
by MDC on Dec 30, 2009 11:35 AM CST up reply actions 2 recs
You know Smithiak
will go digging through the scrap heap. Its what they do.
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by Mike Kerns on Dec 30, 2009 11:43 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I'd give my left nut for Derrick Johnson
I know he’s no Patrick Willis, but I’d go completely insane for Derrick Johnson. Wow. That’d be great.
Enjoyed the analysis, but how do the Texans’ LBs stack up to other 4-3 LBs? That would be the most telling.
Rooting for the Texans, Rockets and Astros is like living in a House of Pain.
by kurtie! on Dec 30, 2009 11:49 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Yeah, that's kind of hard comparing 3-4 LBs to 4-3 LBs since 3-4 D's send LBs after the QB more
I would challenge you to a battle of wits, but you appear to be unarmed.
by The Night Owl on Dec 30, 2009 11:55 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Any of you guys want to do that in a fanpost
and I will edit it to my original post.
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by Mike Kerns on Dec 30, 2009 2:42 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Rec'd
Because this is exactly what BRB is all about.
If the Treasury Secretary doesn't have to pay taxes, then why do I?
by Shake on Dec 30, 2009 3:23 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Good debate
Diles will not be challenging for Pro Bowl status anytime soon. But, like all the players on this defense, he went through the growing pains of a new defensive scheme this season. The defense grew to be dominating at times (read: one half) and soft at other times (read: the other half). I think the weak links of the defense, by the end of the season were the middle of the defensive line, and the depth of the CB and FS positions. If I were to rank the off-season needs for the defense I would rank them DT, FS, CB and then WIL. So, unless an opportunity arises to pick up a solid veteran free agent LB or a talent that falls in the draft then, I think there are bigger needs. I don’t think the goal is to be able to say the Texans have the best LB crew in the league. The interior O-line and interior D-line are high on my list.
I suppose if all of the stars, moons and planets align it could be possible, but what are the chances of that?
by Rip Jersey on Dec 30, 2009 8:59 PM CST via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
OK MCD I did some stats and here are the results
This is what I found out
First I assigned points to each statistic for each player as follows
1 Solo
0.5 Ast
2 Sack
3 Int
3 IntTD
6 DefTD
3 FFum
1 PD
3 Sfty
then I ranked each LB in their team
and came up with this list
Keith Brooking DAL 15 103.5 6.90 1
LaMarr Woodley PIT 15 97.5 6.50 2
DeAndre Levy DET 15 74.0 4.93 3
Stephen Nicholas ATL 15 77.0 5.13 4
Andra Davis DEN 15 81.0 5.40 5
A.J. Hawk GNB 15 84.0 5.60 6
Quincy Black TAM 15 87.0 5.80 7
Nick Roach CHI 15 75.5 5.03 8
Corey Mays KAN 15 75.0 5.00 9
Takeo Spikes SFO 14 75.0 5.36 10
Calvin Pace NYJ 11 73.0 6.64 11
Tully Banta-Cain NWE 15 69.5 4.63 12
Brian Orakpo WAS 15 68.5 4.57 13
Jarret Johnson BAL 15 66.0 4.40 14
Brandon Siler SDG 15 63.5 4.23 15
Gerald Hayes ARI 13 58.5 4.50 16
David Thornton TEN 11 58.0 5.27 17
Scott Fujita NOR 10 56.0 5.60 18
D’Qwell Jackson CLE 6 55.5 9.25 19
Zac Diles HOU 15 54.5 3.63 20
James Anderson CAR 15 53.5 3.57 21
Chase Blackburn NYG 15 53.5 3.57 22
Channing Crowder MIA 13 52.0 4.00 23
Brandon Johnson CIN 15 52.0 3.47 24
Philip Wheeler IND 15 50.0 3.33 25
Clint Ingram JAC 13 49.0 3.77 26
Ben Leber MIN 15 50.0 3.33 27
Paris Lenon STL 14 45.0 3.21 28
Chris Draft BUF 10 43.0 4.30 29
Leroy Hill SEA 10 39.5 3.95 30
Ricky Brown OAK 5 32.5 6.50 31
Omar Gaither PHI 5 31.0 6.20 32
Average 13.125 61.58 4.834
This puts ZD as 20 and below average in almost every catigory.
I will conceed your point that he is below average but I would still argue we could have done much worse he is far from the worst #3 in the league
Sorry the formatting sucks
You can't fix Dumb or being a VYFB
by Texans-Brocos on Dec 30, 2009 12:29 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I'll agree
that we could do worse and that he’s not the worst out there. No argument at all. I just think that we (meaning Smithiak) should not let ourselves think he’s better than he actually is, because that might make us pass on an affordable upgrade. That’s all.
Thanks for doing the legwork, though.
Jim Caldwell delenda est.
by MDC on Dec 30, 2009 12:36 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
the best WLB I can think of is Lance Briggs. lets compare him to Diles for arguement sake.
Briggs: 925 plays, 106 tackles, 6 tackles for loss, 5 passes defensed, 11 missed tackles, 78% completion rate against him with a 7.9 ypc and 96% rating against.
Diles: 460 plays, 56 tackles, 6 tackles for loss, 1 passes defensed, 3 missed tackles, 73% completion rate against him with a 4.6 ypc and 77% rating against.
So half the playing time, half the tackles, same TFL, comparable and slightly better coverage results. Keep in mind Diles doesnt get to play alot of passing downs.
Briggs was a 3rd round pick, Diles was a 7th. Briggs is on a 36mil 6 year deal, Diles a 1.7mil 4 year deal.
Be judgmental about the actions of the past, be hopeful about the actions of the future. -The Homers Creed
by DaGoaT on Dec 30, 2009 1:43 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I'll take that drop off
for that difference in salary any day.
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by Mike Kerns on Dec 30, 2009 2:44 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
its not much of a drop off even when you consider the snap count difference. Thats also considering Briggs is the best linebacker on that team.
Be judgmental about the actions of the past, be hopeful about the actions of the future. -The Homers Creed
by DaGoaT on Dec 30, 2009 2:49 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, I realize that
I was saying that I am fine with Diles shortcomings as compared to Briggs when the guy is making about 96% less money than him.
I like Diles. Up until you and a handful of guys on the Texans Talk forum, I thought I was the only one.
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by Mike Kerns on Dec 30, 2009 2:52 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
oh my comment was more of an addition than any kind of argument to your post. I am more than happy with the value Diles provides when hes on the field.
Be judgmental about the actions of the past, be hopeful about the actions of the future. -The Homers Creed
by DaGoaT on Dec 30, 2009 3:02 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Ironic
You complain below that the stats T-B uses need to be normalized to include only WLBs in a 4-3, then you throw out raw numbers that only support your point because they lack context. (Note: Some of this goes for the discussion below re: DeMeco/Cushing.)
Briggs plays as one of the two nickel LBs for the Bears and, at least sometimes, as the dime LB (though not 100% of the time). OF COURSE he’s going to have a higher completion percentage against, since he’s playing a ton of passing downs in the middle of the field. You are simultaneously giving Diles a pass because he only plays two downs and then using others’ stats that are artificially inflated by the very fact that they are three down players to support your argument. Weak.
Also, three missed tackles for Diles? I guess whomever did the accounting didn’t “credit” Diles with a missed tackle when he took a horrible angle and couldn’t even get to the ball carrier. It’s like how RFers with no range will have a great fielding percentage, I guess.
Con’t. below
Jim Caldwell delenda est.
by MDC on Dec 30, 2009 5:21 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Get me the raw numbers and I will crunch whatever you want to see.
I typically use yahoo to get my stat data but if you have some place that gives more indepth data let me know and I will pull from there!
You can't fix Dumb or being a VYFB
by Texans-Brocos on Dec 30, 2009 5:38 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I didnt throw out ‘raw numbers’ it was simply a data comparison, you can draw your own conclusions. By your own logic, Briggs tackle numbers are also artificially inflated. The raw numbers was not my point, it was the ratios and percentages based on their performance in line with the number of snaps they get. Thats why I included the percentages with the raw numbers.
I find it funny that someone would say his coverage stats are not comparable to someone else who is playing the middle of the field yet alot of people like to complain about his tackle and sack numbers and compare him to linebackers in better positions to get said tackles and sacks.
The bottom line is per the given number of snaps played, his production is in line with someone arguably considered one of the better at his position and his tackle for loss ratio is better. For the playing time he gets, Diles is providing solid production before you even consider the fact is he lining up next to two pro bowlers.
Be judgmental about the actions of the past, be hopeful about the actions of the future. -The Homers Creed
by DaGoaT on Dec 30, 2009 6:02 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
It's not.
You have twisted the math to make the percentages look like something they are not. See below.
As for the rest, the fact that people point to his coverage, tackle, AND sack numbers would seem to suggest that he’s not doing much of either. But at least he’s cheap, right?
Jim Caldwell delenda est.
by MDC on Dec 30, 2009 6:04 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
its kinda hard to make a list to rank him unless your list has only weakside linebackers in a 4-3 and takes into account the number of snaps they get. Comparing him to all linebackers regarless of of that isnt going to be much of a comparison.
Be judgmental about the actions of the past, be hopeful about the actions of the future. -The Homers Creed
by DaGoaT on Dec 30, 2009 1:13 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
for example Keith Brooking is a ILB and has played 728 snaps.
Be judgmental about the actions of the past, be hopeful about the actions of the future. -The Homers Creed
by DaGoaT on Dec 30, 2009 1:15 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Good list – but Lofton tops Nicholas on Atlanta, Williams in KC, and in SF the main man is also different – maybe tweak your values a bit
Also Orapko in Washington is DE half the time
He’s always open. He catches a lot of balls. He’s un-guardable, no matter how old he is
by WarWolf on Dec 30, 2009 1:22 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
For comparison: Diles has played in 460 plays this season, to Demeco’s 910. Diles has 6 tackles for loss, Demeco has 6.5. Diles has dropped into coverage 146 times to Demeco’s 422. While in coverage Diles was targeted 15 times for 11 completions(73%) and 51 yards with a 4.6 ypc. He has 1 pass defensed and opposing QBs have a 77.4 rating against him. Demeco has been targeted 44 times for 37 completions(84%) and 333 yards with a 9.0 ypc. He has 2 passes defensed and opposing QBs have a 113.4 rating against him.
So looking at these numbers Diles has been on the field for 274 running plays and made 56 tackles, making him involved 20% of the time. Demeco has been on the field for 383 running plays and has 116 tackles, making him involved 30% of the time(disclaimer: any tackles made on a passing play are lumped into these numbers). With Diles being on the field for 146 passing plays, he has been completed on 7% of his plays, Demeco has been completed on 8% of his plays. Diles has missed 3 tackles, Demeco has missed 9.
I would say for being the weakside linebacker with half the snaps as the two pro bowlers next to him, Diles has been more than serviceable.
Numbers were compiled using nfl.com and profootballfocus. I will not argue if they are 100% accurate, but they are serviceable as a comparison.
Be judgmental about the actions of the past, be hopeful about the actions of the future. -The Homers Creed
by DaGoaT on Dec 30, 2009 1:10 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Picking up from above
Again, you are pretending like all snaps are created equal. DeMeco is playing, basically, every single defensive snap, including nickel and dime packages. So comparing his total passing defense numbers to Diles’ totals is misleading at best and nonsensical at worst. The relevant comparison would be how often DeMeco is targeted (and his corresponding defensive numbers) on first and second downs (or, at the very least, when he and Diles are both on the field).
Second flaw: You can’t credit Diles with 56 tackles only on running snaps unless you are implying that he made zero tackles on the passes that people caught while he was covering him. Nor can you credit him with all 56 tackles purely on run plays unless you are simultaneously implying that he has not made a single tackle all season when the ball was completed to the receiver someone else was covering, which would also be very poor play on his part if you consider the number of short crossing routes that are thrown in a typical game. You flippantly dismiss this concern with your disclaimer without realizing the enormous flaw in removing all passing plays before you divide by total tackles. (Really, this second flaw is probably the most annoying part of your argument; you are purposely distorting the math and pretending like it doesn’t matter because you gave a little disclaimer.)
Third flaw: 15 targets? Really? Whomever was counting either (a) just pulled a number out of thin air or (b) didn’t count the passes that are thrown to a receiver because Diles will have primarily responsibility for tracking him down (think swing passes, short screens, etc.). Not counting those gives a pretty misleading picture, especially because one of Diles’ biggest flaws is his attack angle that leaves him grasping at air on swing passes to fast RBs.
Flaw the fourth? You keep pretending like the team plays a ton of nickel D, thus Diles is off the hook for a lot of what’s happened. Simply not true. We played a ton of nickel (understandably) against the Colts, but, otherwise, it’s been a fairly standard amount. Meaning that, to the extent your premise is based on Diles not being responsible for what happens on third down, it’s inherently flawed, both because there are times he’s on the field on third down and because his poor play on first and second directly impacts what happens on third.
Flaw five: 41 solo tackles in 15 games. Meaning less than three times per game, Diles is the first person to the ball carrier and makes the tackle. Spin that however you want, but given that the distribution of plays to our left and right has been right in line with league average, even if you give Diles the benefit of Mario eating up plays that other WLBs would have to make, that’s still not impressive. Again, as I said in an earlier post, count the number of plays in the game books that are a run to Diles’ side that end in a tackle by Pollard or Quin.
Flaw six: A 4-3 WLB is generally the quickest of the three LBs. Diles is not even close. A 4-3 WLB is generally the best coverage LB on the team. Diles is not even close. These facts don’t seem to alarm you simply because, I suppose, Diles doesn’t cost a lot. Well a Ford Focus is pretty cheap, but that doesn’t mean I’d want it half the cops in town driving them instead of a car that can actually do all the things they need to do. (Strained analogy.)
Jim Caldwell delenda est.
by MDC on Dec 30, 2009 6:03 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I've been putting in the research for an offseason post
And I agree with this completely.
Especially because I think he’ll be pretty affordable (non-starter) and I think he’s a pretty good pass rusher, which IMO is Diles’ achilles heal as a player.
- Rivers McCown, From Mom's Basement | Twitter
by riversmccown on Dec 30, 2009 2:09 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
in fairness Diles doesnt get alot of opportunities to rush the passer.
Be judgmental about the actions of the past, be hopeful about the actions of the future. -The Homers Creed
by DaGoaT on Dec 30, 2009 2:47 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Perhaps
Because Bush knows that he can’t rush the passer.
- Rivers McCown, From Mom's Basement | Twitter
by riversmccown on Dec 30, 2009 4:34 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Don't they pull Diles out of third down
and put Barwin in sometimes? Im not sure, but I think i’ve seen him lined up as a WLB a couple of times before.
by Jordann on Dec 30, 2009 4:37 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
you say that like the fact that Cushing and Ryans are better is some kind of bad thing. 1 of them has to come out in nickel, I dont see why the fact it is Diles is some kind of knock on him. It wouldnt matter if you had god, jesus, and the holy ghost at linebacker, one of them is coming off in nickel.
Be judgmental about the actions of the past, be hopeful about the actions of the future. -The Homers Creed
by DaGoaT on Dec 30, 2009 5:03 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Ha Ha!
Thats awesome.
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by Mike Kerns on Dec 30, 2009 5:05 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Not Necessarily
Durga, the undersized 3 technique, would be a better choice to sub for the nickel. IMHO.
"So I got that goin' for me, which is nice." ~ Carl Spackler
by LoneSpot on Dec 30, 2009 5:07 PM CST up reply actions 3 recs
I'm not sure what that had to with my comment at all.
- Rivers McCown, From Mom's Basement | Twitter
by riversmccown on Dec 30, 2009 5:26 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
you implied an opinion that Bush thinks he cant rush the passer, Im implying an opinion that hes simply the 3rd best rushing linebacker.
Be judgmental about the actions of the past, be hopeful about the actions of the future. -The Homers Creed
by DaGoaT on Dec 30, 2009 5:34 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Okay...?
I don’t think DeMeco is THAT great at blitzing, honestly. I’m sure I’ll catch the wrath of Durga for that.
But why in the hell would him being the third best linebacker have anything to do with how often he blitzes? It’s not like the Texans are big nickel blitzers.
- Rivers McCown, From Mom's Basement | Twitter
by riversmccown on Dec 30, 2009 6:15 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Beat me to it
I was trying to figure out what blitzing had to do with the whole “Diles not playing nickel” thing. We have about two blitzes we run out of our two nickel variations.
(Also, I agree re: DeMeco blitzing. He’s not bad, per se, but it’s nothing to write home about. He’s much better playing sideline to sideline than shooting the gap.)
Jim Caldwell delenda est.
by MDC on Dec 30, 2009 6:17 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Our blitzing sucks.
Period.
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by bigfatdrunk on Dec 30, 2009 8:44 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I could just be talking out of my ass, or I could just be drunk.
But here’s my opinion. They see two tackles as a better option than a third LB in nickel. If your third LB is a stud, you’re better off with 1 DT in an obvious passing situation where you would play nickel. Or against the Colts for an entire game. It gives you many more options with blitzing and coverage.
I think Bush feels Amobi (or which ever tackles are in during a particular nickel package) are better at rushing the passer than Diles is at playing WLB in a nickel package. Since the nickel is employed on passing downs, you want your best pass rushers on the line, and, if your #3 backer is particularly versatile in coverage and pass rush, you would prefer to have that in play in order to disguise blitzes and coverage. There isn’t a lot you can do with a DT other than rush him. It limits you. Again, IMHO.
"So I got that goin' for me, which is nice." ~ Carl Spackler
by LoneSpot on Dec 30, 2009 6:36 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Diles is underated in the sense that people still make posts like this one
Diles has played substantially less than our other two starting LBs this season, and probably the majority of starting LBs in the league, so his lack of raw statistics is hardly and indictment. Fielding a team isn’t as simple as creating an all star team, you actually have to pay them. For his salary, Diles is a steal… You can’t have 11 pro bowlers on defense, and to get the kind of production they do from Diles’ salary is pretty good.
by Bryan72076 on Dec 30, 2009 2:44 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
And why does he get less playing time than other WLB's in the league?
I’ll let other people answer this.
by Jordann on Dec 30, 2009 2:52 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
because he plays next to two pro bowlers?
Be judgmental about the actions of the past, be hopeful about the actions of the future. -The Homers Creed
by DaGoaT on Dec 30, 2009 3:00 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
With the exception of Chris Brown.
I think Kubiak limits his snaps because he understands how much of a liability Zac Diles is/can be.
by Jordann on Dec 30, 2009 3:06 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
well I have no way of disproving you obviously, but I think its more because they play alot of nickel and being the 3rd best LB, hes taken off the field.
Be judgmental about the actions of the past, be hopeful about the actions of the future. -The Homers Creed
by DaGoaT on Dec 30, 2009 3:09 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Outside of the Indy games
The team hasn’t played THAT much nickel.
- Rivers McCown, From Mom's Basement | Twitter
by riversmccown on Dec 30, 2009 4:35 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
well 910 plays that Demeco has played, Im not gonna look it up but lets assume thats every defensive snap. Diles has played 460 snaps. Adibi and Bentley combined have played 41 plays. So even if you add them to Diles totals, thats 409 plays that we had less than 3 linebackers. Im not gonna say all of that is nickel, but I would say nearly half of the total plays being outside of your base 3 linebacker set is a significant amount.
Be judgmental about the actions of the past, be hopeful about the actions of the future. -The Homers Creed
by DaGoaT on Dec 30, 2009 5:46 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Do me a favor
and find me a couple other teams who don’t use their WLBs as one of the two nickel backers. I’m guessing you’ll find that, on those teams as well as this one, that it’s because the WLB is not good at the things a WLB is supposed to do and, thus, isn’t good in the nickel. When you factor in how bad Cushing has been in coverage, especially very early in the year, it’s an indictment of Diles that he was never even in the discussion for the nickel package.
Also, thanks for the econ lesson. I assumed I could just move players around like fantasy football.
Finally, “to get the kind of production” as we’re getting from Diles presupposes that his production is better than what we could get for similar money elsewhere. That has yet to be proven. So, you know, stop begging the question.
Jim Caldwell delenda est.
by MDC on Dec 30, 2009 6:09 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I know it's dumb of me to ask...
but where’s Patrick Willis? He needs to sit at the top of this list. Not the 49ers, just Willis.
by TexansDC on Dec 30, 2009 12:08 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
Willis is the best trio of linebacker in the game.
"An open mind is like a fortress with it's gates unbarred and unguarded."
The ROSENFAIL : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CAKAKE-uq-8&feature=related
by TexansForever on Dec 31, 2009 7:36 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Funny thing...
his stats would hold up against those trios listed.
by TexansDC on Dec 31, 2009 1:36 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
great young talent
and obviously the sky is the limit for our guys. Ravens, Bears are getting older and Chargers may not be able to re-sign a lot of their guys come 2011. One thing that I’d like to see is that our LB’s have LESS solo tackles as a result of our D-line clogging up the line of scrimmage more often.
by TexanRyan on Dec 30, 2009 12:08 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Side note of the Stats work
Under my calculations looking at all NFL teams
for the top 3 LB’s we had the highest total number of points! Meaning we have the best 3 total LB’s
Note we rank 14 though when all LB’s are added to the calculation, however this doesn’t account for which teams play a 3-4 and which play a 4-3
You can't fix Dumb or being a VYFB
by Texans-Brocos on Dec 30, 2009 12:39 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Also another side note
In my overall ranking
Cushing is number 3 with 144 points behind Patrick Wills with 170 at #1 and Jon Beason with 144.5 points at #2.
and DeMeco at #22 overall
You can't fix Dumb or being a VYFB
by Texans-Brocos on Dec 30, 2009 12:59 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
This is pretty consistent
with PFF. The Demigod is #1 at ILB. Cushing is #2 at 4-3 OLB.
Except Jon Beason….he’s 31st at ILB, 12 spots behind DeMeco.
by TexansDC on Dec 30, 2009 1:10 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Jarius Byrd
Pretty sure the starting safety for the AFC Probowl team is a Rookie too.
by distant_texans_fan on Dec 30, 2009 12:43 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
aye – great player – was leading the NFL in ints when he went on IR
He’s always open. He catches a lot of balls. He’s un-guardable, no matter how old he is
by WarWolf on Dec 30, 2009 1:18 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Wow
Okay, totally missed that piece of news.
by distant_texans_fan on Dec 30, 2009 1:40 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
He was named a Pro Bowler, but he is on IR
Done for the season.
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by Mike Kerns on Dec 30, 2009 2:49 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
"The thought that they haven't even hit their prime yet is staggering...."
Ryans and Diles are easily in their prime. Cushing is a couple years out.
"An open mind is like a fortress with it's gates unbarred and unguarded."
The ROSENFAIL : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CAKAKE-uq-8&feature=related
by TexansForever on Dec 30, 2009 1:11 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Their prime usually means
27-32…at least how I’ve always interpreted it. They’re not RBs.
by TexansDC on Dec 30, 2009 1:13 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed
Thank you.
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by Mike Kerns on Dec 30, 2009 2:49 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
That means.
I got 5 more years till I hit my prime.
Sweeet!
by Jordann on Dec 30, 2009 2:52 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
That means I am in mine...
Yikes!
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by Mike Kerns on Dec 30, 2009 2:54 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Damn
Mine is almost over.
Jim Caldwell delenda est.
by MDC on Dec 30, 2009 6:10 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Mine ended 3 years ago by that estimate =/
"An open mind is like a fortress with it's gates unbarred and unguarded."
The ROSENFAIL : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CAKAKE-uq-8&feature=related
by TexansForever on Dec 31, 2009 7:38 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
No way,
Calling any defensive player over 30 “in their prime” is crazy.
24-28 is your prime in the NFL in my opinion.
"An open mind is like a fortress with it's gates unbarred and unguarded."
The ROSENFAIL : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CAKAKE-uq-8&feature=related
by TexansForever on Dec 31, 2009 7:37 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I've always found that true
With RB’s
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by Mike Kerns on Dec 31, 2009 8:52 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Good article – Cushing and Ryams are very good
But why didn’t you all tell me about the fight Pollard got in with Jackson ?
I just heard about it
He’s always open. He catches a lot of balls. He’s un-guardable, no matter how old he is
by WarWolf on Dec 30, 2009 1:23 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Breaking News!
Zac Diles once kicked MDC’s Dog!
It all makes sense now…
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by Mike Kerns on Dec 30, 2009 7:14 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
True Story
Next thing you know, MDC will be writing an article about what an awesome and underrated LB that Greenwood is was.
If the Treasury Secretary doesn't have to pay taxes, then why do I?
by Shake on Dec 30, 2009 7:18 PM CST up reply actions 5 recs
goo'd
for ouch factor.
A Texans fan. Really. No, I'm not kidding.
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by bigfatdrunk on Dec 30, 2009 8:46 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
For Morlon pre-2008
I still stand by him being underrated. Unfortunately, the asshole got fat and shitty about 30 minutes after I wrote that post.
Wait… what post? You’ve got no evidence of any of this.
Jim Caldwell delenda est.
by MDC on Dec 31, 2009 8:11 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Tim will find a way
He probably printed out a hard copy and is scanning it as we speak…
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by Mike Kerns on Dec 31, 2009 8:53 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
You Have Me Confused With Shake
He’s the keeper of the DGDB&D archives.
Looking forward to a day when being a Texans fan doesn't mean that April is the highlight of my season...
by Tim on Dec 31, 2009 9:55 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Just curious MDC
Any chance you remember the clever title of that post???
If the Treasury Secretary doesn't have to pay taxes, then why do I?
by Shake on Dec 31, 2009 10:14 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Actually,
I don’t. The only posts I can really recall the titles for are a couple of the Demps/Bentley convos, the BBQ primer, and the 4-3 defense primers. Odds are decent that it was a song lyric, a Simpsons quote, or a Pulp Fiction quote.
Jim Caldwell delenda est.
by MDC on Dec 31, 2009 12:23 PM CST up reply actions 3 recs
Good point
And pretty much all Jack Nicholson movies
Jim Caldwell delenda est.
by MDC on Jan 1, 2010 5:46 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Dont tempt nolander and Shake
to dig through the google caches.
They will find it.
What they wont find is a copy of Morlon’s next hit single.
by Jordann on Dec 31, 2009 10:12 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

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