It Looks Bad But...
by DocTexan on Apr 1, 2009 2:44 AM CDT
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I'm actually gonna argue that this is a very positive thing. John McClain reports that Dunta and (gasp!) Demeco are not going to report for the voluntary workouts because they're upset about their contracts.
At first glance, this looks just awful for our beloved Texans. Two of their best players and leaders on defense are going to "take a stand" and skip out on the weightlifting and sprints portion of the offseason workout because they are upset about their contract situations. Oh God!!!! That's it, our season is over right? No (in my opinion); this is a positive for this year.
Look, I get how upset Demeco is, the guy is an absolute warrior and there has been no word on the specifics of the contract that was offered to him and that he turned down. He DEFINITELY deserves more than the $1.4 million he's gonna be paid this year. There's absolutely no question about that in my opinion. But the bottom line is that Rick Smith offered him a long-term contract of unknown amount and by turning it down he was prepared to play another year with an extremely underpaid tender.
Dunta is another story. Rick Smith offered him a contract that (again) in my opinion was as much or more than than I would have placed his worth at considering he was coming off a horrendous injury. Dunta had the opportunity to be among the highest paid cornerbacks in the NFL with $23 million guaranteed, so he really does not receive my sympathy as per Demeco. If your ego is too big to accept a more than fair deal, don't complain when you're guaranteed ~$10 million, you're just not gonna get many points with me or any true Texan fan (I'm only speaking for myself, but I really believe I'm being as objective as possible here, please correct me if I'm wrong).
As to why I believe all of this is a great thing for the 2009 Texans. I firmly believe that if we EVER had a chance to make the playoffs, THIS is the year. First and foremost, we have so many key players playing for their next contract. Among them are Dunta, Demeco, OD, Kevin Walter, and (sigh) Travis Johnson. Now I am firmly entrenched in my opinion that nothing motivates football players to perform at their highest possible level than the thought of money. All of these guys need to perform NOW, or they will not receive the compensation that they believe (right or wrong) they deserve. They have one season to show Rick Smith and the rest of the NFL that they are worthy of the extremely big dollar contracts, and it is for this reason that I believe that Texans fans will see the absolute best effort out of these players.
Second, if we have a good draft we will have never had this much talent on the team. Consider it, we have the chance to plug just about every hole on this team with this draft, a position we have never found ourselves in. If Smith and Kubiak do this draft right (and I have all the faith in the world that they will) then for the first time in our history we will have at least 1 decent/good player at every position. That is more than enough to get a team into the playoffs with good coaching and a little luck.
To conclude, I could honestly care less about how "upset" Dunta is, but I can really feel for Demeco and OD. My prediction? Dunta will play his heart out and someone will overpay for him after we make the playoffs. Demeco, OD, and Kevin Walter will get the contracts that they deserve during or after this season. Either way, I must reiterate, THIS is the season to get to the playoffs. I really feel that if it doesn't happen this season (and I hope I don't jinx it by even bringing it up), Kubes will be gone and it will be a number of years more until this great city can taste football glory.
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Good Post
I agree with most of what you are saying. As for Dunta, you’re right, I have no sympathy. I think players just get to a point where they’re listening to the wrong people (agents) and lose touch with reality.
The DeMeco situation upsets me a lot though. ILB like him are a rare commodity, and we have to do everything we can to make him happy. Like you said, we don’t know what they offered him, but I’d be a lot happier if we could get a deal done. I think DeMeco is the kind of guy that would remember ill treatment and walk despite wanting to stay if he feels he was abused by Rick Smith, and that thought scares the shit out of me.
Let's get the Texans a better fight song.
TT if we have no idea what was offered to DeMeco, then how can you know with whom to be upset?
I fully agree that we all should be disappointed at how Dunta scoffed at an offer that is arguably bigger than any other team would make to him. Smith gave him the benefit of the doubt presumably for the intangibles that Dunta brings to the table. I hope Dunta makes it all the way back to his pre-injury form, but if he doesn’t, he did Smith a huge favor by turning him down. We can invest that money in a 1st round CB next year.
I am very disappointed that Smith has not been able to extend DeMeco, but without seeing a $$$ figure, no intelligent opinion on who is at fault can be formed. I like that DeMeco’s camp has shown more class than Dunta’s by not going public with the negotiations, but for all any of us know, Smith made a over market value offer to DeMeco as well. It’s not like he isn’t the heart and soul of the defense. It’s not like he doesn’t play through injuries and never complains. It’s not like he isn’t our defensive leader now that Dunta has blown it. You have hinted that DeMeco may have been abused by Smith, but the reverse may be true. I am holding out faith that after the draft is done, that Smith can sort out some contracts. DeMeco, OD & KW may be motivated by a contract season, but I would rather have them happy and committed to being Texans with fat contracts. TJ, on the other hand, not worth making an offer to at this juncture.
by oiler-texan diehard on Apr 1, 2009 3:31 PM CDT up reply actions
I feel you OTD
I was having a discussion with my neighbor last night, who is a huge Steelers fan (he writes for BTSC) and we were talking about guys they had to re-sign. We got onto the subject of Hines Ward, who is nearing the end of a contract soon, and we both agreed that there are certain guys that you can’t afford to let walk because they’re the heart and soul of your team. DeMeco is that guy to me. In my opinion, different rules apply to that corps of guys that you just can’t afford to let walk. It’s not like that group is huge either, it consists of DeMeco, Mario and AJ3000. For these three guys, you have to operate by a different set of rules when talking contracts.
Let's get the Texans a better fight song.
Could not agree more
I was shocked to hear that Dunta turned down $23 mil. Thought he was more of a team guy than that. I would be equally shocked if we hear that DeMeco has turned down an offer that would put him on a par with the highest paid ILB’s in the league. I just don’t get that me first vibe from him. In fact I get just the opposite. He seems like the quintessential quiet superstar, who leads by hitting, not by talking, and for whom ego, fame and wealth are the byproducts of his play not the focus of his being. He is, or should be, as untouchable as anyone on the Texans, which means as of now signing him and keeping him happy has to be priority #1 for Smith. All that being said, where does one draw the line when making a contract offer to an invaluable superstar?
by oiler-texan diehard on Apr 1, 2009 7:44 PM CDT up reply actions
Dunta, I feel less than no sympathy
Dunta has gone from non-complainer to complainer and from team leader to non-team leader. He’s not a Pro Bowler. He’s not a shut down corner. I’ve seen average wide receivers beat him down the sideline with the game on the line. His intangibles, like leadership, are going down the tubes. I argued against even tendering the franchise tag because I knew he’d bitch. After this year, they can draft a corner in the first round and let him go.
The true test in the life of a Texans fan is how gracefully you endure it.
You had me until the end...
Kubes will be gone? Are we really that fed up with him to think that we’ve become the Cowboys, and anything less than great success is going to get him canned?
I wasn’t aware he’d lost so much faith after so much progress.
Am I being to harsh on this point?
Bacon tastes good... Pork chops taste good.
No. No. He hasn't. No.
I can’t see it. Maybe, for some reason, if the defense turns out to be worse (hard to imagine) and the offense regresses, it’s always a possibility. But even if they don’t make the playoffs, and even if they go 9-7but are are competitive in every game they play, I just don’t think he would be gone.
Yeah Kubiak has another couple years in him.
Unless this team bellies up Kubiak will be around for at least a few more simply based on the improvements he has made. Two 8-8 seasons that could have been much more are nonetheless the best we’ve had.
I don’t like Rick Smith on the other hand. I think he is incredibly intelligent, incredibly pro-active, but also incredibly cocky. He doesn’t seem to handle any of these situations very delicately, and the players don’t seem to respect him. Justice (ugh) wrote a column about him in the Chronical a while back talking about how Smith once told the players that they should look up to him because he’s so young and he’s an accomplished GM. I think all the good he does in the draft and free agency may very well be undone by his attitude and dealings with his players.
"There was a pretty good group of free agent quarterbacks out there and, after studying them all, I liked the fact that he's young and I like the fact he's a mirror image of the guy we have (Matt Schaub) so when we're coaching Matt, we're coaching him, too." - Gary Kubiak on new Texans QB Dan Orlovsky
Matt Schaub = Safety Dan. We're in trouble.
by last texans fan on Apr 1, 2009 11:24 AM CDT up reply actions
No Idea, Justice is a hack
But I doubt he would have made it up, he directly quoted a player, and Smith probably would have responded if it wasn’t true. That’s a pretty slanderous statement. Besides have you ever seen an interview with Rick Smith? It’s totally something he would say.
"There was a pretty good group of free agent quarterbacks out there and, after studying them all, I liked the fact that he's young and I like the fact he's a mirror image of the guy we have (Matt Schaub) so when we're coaching Matt, we're coaching him, too." - Gary Kubiak on new Texans QB Dan Orlovsky
Matt Schaub = Safety Dan. We're in trouble.
by last texans fan on Apr 1, 2009 11:53 AM CDT up reply actions
I don't remember him directly quoting a player...
I’m happy to be wrong about this, but I seem to remember him just kind of throwing it out there without attributing it to anyone. He often does that.
Because
Justice is one of the most respected journalists in the country.
It takes a big man to walk away, but a bigger man to break his freaking jaw!
Which is a very damning
indictment of this country.
When I'm on the mic, I'm like global warming, you can't ignore me.
by tehGrindCrusher on Apr 1, 2009 3:38 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
I agree
I don’t think Kubiak’s job is on the line, despite everyone saying so. He’s done a pretty good job with what he’s had to work with and I think he fits the organization well. I think he’ll get us to the playoffs this year, but if he doesn’t I do think he’ll be back and I’ll certainly support him.
Dunta on the other hand… that guy just plain isn’t thinking.
To clarify
I am a huge Kubiak fan and am astounded at how far he has taken this team and turned it around from the abomination that he inherited. However, I think that if, at the very least, the Texans are not playing meaningful games in December he’s probably gone. Another 8-8 season? I’d put his odds of getting another year at 50-50. Winning record without playoffs? 99% sure he’d be back. But if this team slips and goes 7-9 or worse, the smart money would be on him getting a pink slip
Echoing
I agree: Pressure is on Kubes this year. If he doesn’t lead the team to a winning record, I think it’s more likely than not that he’d be gone. He doesn’t need a playoff appearance to stick around, but in the modern NFL, where teams go from 6-10 or worse to the playoffs in a season, Kubes has got to have more wins than losses in ’09 to be assured of further employment in his hometown.
Looking forward to a day when being a Texans fan doesn't mean that April is the highlight of my season...
by Tim on Apr 1, 2009 1:00 PM CDT up reply actions
If that's true...
I don’t know if I can continue being a fan of ANY nfl team.
It’s ridiculous to me to think of how bad we were when Kubes got here, to how close we are to being pretty effin’ solid right now, and the relatively short turnaround time it’s taken to move this mountain of turd matter, and people are actually thinking he’ll be gone if we don’t make it to the playoffs this year. Ridiculous, I say again.
How is any team supposed to learn completely new systems in all facets, a new philosophy, turn over a roster, and expect to be dominant in one of the top 2-3 divisions in football, and do it within 3-4 seasons? I’m not even going to factor in the effects of the Hurricane/Storm in this thinking. This stuff takes time, and takes even longer when you’re behind the 8ball from day one, due to past mistakes. Frankly, it’s the kind of stuff Baylor has done for years. For some reason, they thought they deserved to get a top tier coach, and compete in the Big Fuggin 12 just because they somehow deserved it. Meanwhile, they hire coach after coach, throwing them all under the bus, while not giving ANY the common courtesy of a little time to implement what he’s trying to do. It pisses off the true Baylor fans to no end, and they’ve still end up the doormats. How many wrongs make a right? How many lefts?
Please tell me none of you are ACTUALLY thinking Kubes needs to go!?!?
Bacon tastes good... Pork chops taste good.
I don't
I expect to see improvement again, which means a winning record. The only reason we shouldn’t do that would be a huge raft of injuries or some other unforeseen event (like a massive hurricane or something). Even still, we know McNair tends to err on the side of being too slow to pull the trigger, so I would think that even a subpar season would probably not get Kubes axed.
When I'm on the mic, I'm like global warming, you can't ignore me.
by tehGrindCrusher on Apr 1, 2009 3:54 PM CDT up reply actions
This thread is the ideal segueway into a poll question, or two
What is the minimum win total required for Kubes to not get axed? I say 8. Although another 8-8 season would be an incredible disappointment.
and/or
What is the highest win total would assure Kubiak would be seeking employment elsewhere in 2010? I say 5. If we win 6 or 7, unless Kubiak makes some outrageous decisions that contribute to 2 or more defeats, I see McNair not pulling the trigger.
Of course the qualifiers that TGC stated, epic unforseen disasters, are in play.
by oiler-texan diehard on Apr 1, 2009 7:59 PM CDT up reply actions
two things
1. Kubes IMO doesn’t deserve to be fired unless he loses his team (like a Jax 2008 season)
2. Kubes won’t let that happen.
I think he was heading down the road of a disaster, obviously, before “The Drive” against Miami.
After that, we were still WAY out of it, but look what a great job he did as a coach of this team.
If we go 8-8 again and we start 6-1 and the team gives up, then sure, he may be on the block. If we have a repeat of last year then firing Kubiak should not even be on our minds.
Smushiak will take us to the playoffs in 2009.
For me, winning has to be the bottom line, but you make a very valid point
that the win total alone does not quantify the HC’s effectiveness. His ability to motivate, lead and get sustained effort are critical, but not as easily quantified as wins. I have suggested that 8 wins probably keeps Kubes safe for one more year and that 5 wins or less is unacceptable. You have countered that if we have a great start and then fade badly, where it appears that the players have packed it in during December, that 8-8 will get Kubiak fired. Although you say that Kubes will not lose his ability to motivate, and therefore not get fired, a 2-7 finish after a 6-1 start would leave many calling for his head on a platter.
In addition to the motivatiobnal skills, I think we should keep a close eye on clock management and the ability to make quick (and correct) decisions vis a vis play calling and challenges in crunch time. For a longtime QB & OC I think Kubes has been disappointingly indecisive at key points late in the 2nd and 4th quarters. Play calls have been late, timeouts have been misused. I expect improvement there, and I would hope that Smith and McNair are demanding it.
by oiler-texan diehard on Apr 3, 2009 2:42 PM CDT up reply actions
NFL = Not for long for losing coaches
This is a results oriented business, period. Even great coaches get fired.
by oiler-texan diehard on Apr 1, 2009 8:01 PM CDT up reply actions
I'm a dumbass - I meant that comment as a reply to beefy, DOH
by oiler-texan diehard on Apr 1, 2009 8:02 PM CDT up reply actions
You did...
It just lines up weird in these happy little boxes.
Bacon tastes good... Pork chops taste good.
Really?
What was Jeff Fisher’s record his first few years? He didn’t have a winning record until his sixth year in the league. He had three consecutive 8-8 records.
Kubes has taken this team in the right direction. I fully expect that to continue. He’s got to learn a few things like clock management and such but he’s got the most important thing — getting his players to fight and not give up — down. I don’t suspect that will change in the next two years.
When I'm on the mic, I'm like global warming, you can't ignore me.
by tehGrindCrusher on Apr 2, 2009 7:55 AM CDT up reply actions
I have done zero research, and I am sure that exceptions exist to any trend
that would tie losing records to head coaching tenure. I am fairly certain though, that the correlation coefficient between losing and short tenure is high. Perhaps the Fisher case is evidence that Bud isn’t an idiot. McNair has shown patience, but this is not necessarily a positive trait for an owner. He stuck with his first regime and QB too long. Even though Kubes, Smith and Schaub are miles ahead of Capers, Casserly and Carr, the bottom line is winning. The expectations are high this year, and IMO for the first time justifiably so. That pressure is situated squarely on Kubes shoulders. I expect the draft to add enough defensive pieces that there will be no excuses for another non-winning season. Should we take a big step backwards this year, I would not be surprised to see a new HC in 2010.
by oiler-texan diehard on Apr 2, 2009 1:52 PM CDT up reply actions
What upsets me...
Is that you guys saying that this is a real possibility are completely dismissive about the fact that, if it were to happen, it would be wrong. Thus saying, you honestly believe Kubes would DESERVE to get canned if the team slips a bit. If that’s not what you’re saying, I’d love to hear that little nugget. If it is, well… I’m probably going to puke.
I realize that coaching tenure is based on success. With that said, how can you not look at where the team is currently, versus where Kubes began, and NOT call it a huge success? I mean, it would be a success if a highly successful, veteran coach did it in a bubble, MUCH LESS a rookie head coach that had countless reasons to fail.
This makes me have sad face.
Bacon tastes good... Pork chops taste good.
caveat...
If the team comes out and shits the bed with 2 or less wins, and the players effectively give up on him, please forget that I bitched about this. Those things will moot-ify my comments.
Bacon tastes good... Pork chops taste good.
+1 for that
and another +1 for “moot-ify”
but 3-13 he’s probably shown the door also.
But I totally agree, and said as much in another reply above, albeit after you posted but before I read it.
Smushiak will take us to the playoffs in 2009.
Great discussion
We may be getting ahead of ourselves by discussing what should happen to Kubiak IF we don’t have a winning season, but it’s good to get it out there.
My take on it is that 4 years of almost complete autonomy to hire/fire assistants and coordinators and sign/draft/cut players should be enough to at least produce a winning season even when considering he started with such a horrendous team.
After 3 years, only a handful of players remain from the previous regime, meaning that Kubiak has hand selected almost every player that is on this team. He has also hand selected his offensive and defensive coordinators, and has gotten some of the biggest names out there to be assistants and/or position coaches. He also has a team full of young talent with key players entering seasons where they should be at or near their absolute peaks. Now I don’t care what division you play in, if you can’t produce a winning season under these circumstances then there’s something wrong (unless your team goes through an unbelievable set of negative events throughout the season). Look at teams like Miami, Atlanta, and Baltimore, they turned things around in just 1 season with a new regime (and please don’t tell me that they just got incredibly lucky, found a great new quarterback, have more talent, etc, etc.)
Look, I like Kubiak as much as anyone and he has had my unquestioned loyalty throughout his entire tenure here (and he will continue to have it through this season). But given the circumstances heading into this season, stagnation or regression absolutely warrants a serious review of his employment. Just because he’s taken the team this far from where he got it does not mean he has tenure. EVERY coach in the NFL is evaluated on a yearly basis and while changing coaches every season (a la the raiders) is terrible thing for the development of a team, waiting too long and sticking with a regime and system that has not produced a winning season can be just as bad.
They say the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result. No matter how much we all love Kubiak, if he can’t at least produce a winning season then it would be insane to hand him another year without at least seriously considering whether his way can bring this team and this city greatness.
You make decent points...
My retort, sweet and short:
1. It’s taken until THIS offseason for him to be able to cut the dead weight of Weaver, Greenwood, and Faggins (all starters, I might add), so your “he’s hand-picked the roster” argument holds little to no water with me.
2. The three teams you mentioned all played in shit-bag divisions, with much more parity than exists in the AFC South.
Bacon tastes good... Pork chops taste good.
To be clear
I totally agree. I don’t see Kubes getting the can unless something really bad happens on his part (as opposed to things he can’t control, like injuries and acts of God).
I like Kubes, think he’s a good coach (although he still has some things to learn) who one day will be a great coach, and I hope he sticks around.
When I'm on the mic, I'm like global warming, you can't ignore me.
by tehGrindCrusher on Apr 3, 2009 3:33 PM CDT up reply actions
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