Goodbye, Dunta Robinson
by Rip Jersey on Feb 24, 2010 8:18 AM CST
447 comments
via www.chron.com
That's it, he's almost as good as gone. The Texans have released insider information that they will not offer him a contract and they will allow him to become an Unrestricted Free Agent. That means, after March 5 his agent can negotiate with any NFL team, with the circus, with Ken-L-Ration as a dog food tester, with anyone he wants! So, good bye Dunta! It was nice knowin' ya! Don't slam the door on the way out! If you have a favorite Dunta moment, I would love it if you would entertain me with it. Say your goodbyes!!!
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Peace out
As much as ppl have hated on him i was a fan of dunta hate to see him go, but with that said i am and always be a texans fan so if this mothf——— signs with a rival like titans or colts i hope we tear his a— up. Like i said im a texan fan first.
My favorite moment(s)
From a fan perspective, it was probably the 2-INT game his rookie year against Oakland, when I was convinced that we had the next great cover corner on our team. Whoops.
From a Schadenfreude perspective, it was the “Pay Me Rick” moment (esp. if you believe that he previously turned down Chris Gamble money).
I always assumed "You're The Reason God Made Oklahoma" would be some sort of country music diss track. Live and learn, I guess.
My favorite Dunta moment:
When he saved Rick Smith’s ass by turning down way more money than he is worth.
Trade
Could this be the beginning of a sign and trade for Asmoughe? Dunta and a 3rd pick. What do u think.
I disagree
He must be on LSD to have that kind of hallucination
I would challenge you to a battle of wits, but you appear to be unarmed.
by The Night Owl on Feb 24, 2010 11:49 AM CST up reply actions
See
That’s why I write in defense of players so much, fans these days really have next to no loyalty to players even though they expect the players to be loyal to the team and fan base.
Reading the article about Tomlison sealed it for me, when it was mentioned that alot of Charger fans were glad to see him go and quite negative towards him. L.T. gave everything he had to the Chargers his entire career, and will likely be a future hall of famer for his production in San Diego… I can’t understand how he’d get anything but love and respect from Charger fans no matter where he finishes his career.
Robinson might be a lesser player now that he was before his injury, but he had that injury putting his body on the line for “our” team, I don’t understand people turning on him because of a contract dispute. How can you expect players, whose livelihoods come from the game, to have such strong loyalty to a team that they’d gladly except much less money from their current team than what their agent says they can make as a free agent, when neither you or the team shows them any kind of loyalty in return?
It's not about expecting him to take less money
It’s about expecting him not to be a whiny, self-righteous jerk when he (allegedly) turned down a ridiculously favorable contract and wound up getting franchised. I think offering him that kind of money shows more than enough loyalty, and if Dunta’s agent really told him to turn that down, he should have fired the guy immediately. The only person who ever believed Dunta was a top-5 corner, even pre-injury, was Dunta. He had a chance to get paid like it, and he eschewed that chance because he inexplicably thought he was worth even more. Then he has the gall to write “Pay Me Rick” on his shoes like he’s being mistreated at nearly $10M under the franchise contract.
I always assumed "You're The Reason God Made Oklahoma" would be some sort of country music diss track. Live and learn, I guess.
by MDC on Feb 24, 2010 9:23 AM CST up reply actions 7 recs
If he was really
Offered a contract that would pay him as a top 5 corner, do you really think he would turn it down, or that his agent would advise him to? Much more likely is that rumor is just that, rumor. You think the team showed enough loyalty to Robinson for offering a contract that no one knows the terms to.
Turning down a contract doesn’t make him whiney or self-righteous, considering he was likely taking the advice of his agent telling him he was worth more… Did his agent drop the ball? I don’t know maybe, but you hire an agent for his expertise in these matters, if you’re not going to take his advice there’s no reason to have an agent.
If you read or listen to player interviews, the security of a long term contract is more appealing than a large one year contract. Imagine living your life not knowing where in this country you’re going to live on a year to year basis, at some point you want continuity, to know that you have a “home” and can settle down and stop living out of boxes. I doubt seriously Robinson wanted more than $10 mil per year, he wanted a deal done that would keep him in one location for probably the rest of his career, for what his agent was telling him he was worth.
You can see the same think happening this year with Owen Daniels. As productive as he’s been for us, most fans would be more than happy to get rid of him if we could get good value in return… I liked things better before free agency, when you more than likely ended your career with the team you began it with. Fans had loyalty to players then, just come to find out it was forced by circumstances for most.
I'm glad you brought up interviews or reading and listening to players
becasue now I ask you to go back and read or LISTEN to his interview after the Jets came to our house and kicked our asses all over it. Go read that and tell me what kind of player we are losing. He laughed. He thought it was a joke. He Said if we actually were playing it wouldn’t have gone that way. Really???
I say don’t let the door hit you on the way out!
Confucius says "man who stands on toilet, high on pot".
by Bobobigbro on Feb 24, 2010 9:57 AM CST up reply actions 3 recs
Saying that your team didn't show up to play
When you get blown out by the Jets… that’s not accurate?
he basically said
we didn’t try.
And since he can only speak for himself, and he missed camp, and he wrote his list of demands on his shoes, I’d say HE didn’t try.
There is a big difference in not trying and not playing well.
Dunta's weightspeed was too low
by texanphil on Feb 24, 2010 11:10 AM CST up reply actions 2 recs
Or maybe
It was that he felt the team was better than that, that they could have won the game had they played up to their capabilities that you find offensive.
He was
fukin laughing about and it was no big deal to him. Go LISTEN to it.
Confucius says "man who stands on toilet, high on pot".
I wrote it in all caps for you
TWICE.
Confucius says "man who stands on toilet, high on pot".
by Bobobigbro on Feb 24, 2010 10:25 AM CST up reply actions 7 recs
Agreed.
He did joke about his whole shoe stunt and the fact that they just got the asses handed to them. If I remember correctly he also stated something like, we are here to get paid.
He should be there to play and to play to the best of his ability. Once he does that, then he gets paid. The injury not only effected his play, but it also effected his head.
You want us to feel sorry for a guy who made almost $10 mil last year?
I think everyone was a fan of Dunta until last year. Don’t act like what he did can be construed as him being a team player. Did we see that kind of act from DeMeco? No. Because he’s a team player and good leader.
Also, it doesn’t matter who dropped the ball about his contract because Dunta is a grown man. As much as you want to talk about Dunta being human, the fact is that he wouldn’t take a 10 year, 10 mil contract if we offered it to him. Why? Because he wants money. Can he live on a mil a year? Absolutely.
It’s true fans can be fickle, but that is not the case for Dunta. Dunta made the fans not like him. Owen Daniels is heading down that road if he decides to skip the off-season because of his contract. If he was really wanting to show good will and wanted a long term deal, wouldn’t he show up to prove that he’s still got it and the injury won’t change anything?
by theaxeeffect4311 on Feb 24, 2010 10:02 AM CST up reply actions
He wouldn't take a 10 year $10 mil contract
Because $1 mil per year isn’t a fraction of what he’s worth on the open market, that’s only about $200,000 or so from the the league minimum. He wants money? Of course he does, football is his job. A job where he only has 10-15 years to make money for his family to hopefully last them the rest of their lives…, why wouldn’t he want the best contract he could get?
Robinson didn’t make the fans do anything, their reaction is theirs alone. All i’m saying is fans should learn to seperate the game of football from the business of football better.
Fine, then how do you defend him skipping training camp?
Because that seemed to affect his ability to help the team. And that seems like that’s Dunta mixing the business side with the football side, not the fans mixing them. I think you need to separate the personal side from the game of football. You forget that players also have a retirement plan. And if he can make money somewhere else, then let him go make money some where else.
by theaxeeffect4311 on Feb 24, 2010 10:35 AM CST up reply actions 2 recs
It's not that uncommon
He was still trying to get a long term deal worked out. If he went to camp and got injured his chances of getting that deal would be flushed down the toilet. It’s a decision alot of players make when involved in contract talks, especially when they feel like the team is already trying to railroad them, as Robinson felt after the negotiations went sour last year.
Are you employed by the NFLPA?
If the Treasury Secretary doesn't have to pay taxes, then why do I?
by Shake on Feb 24, 2010 3:10 PM CST up reply actions 3 recs
make money for his family, moving all over the country
try a little perspective.
$200k/year from age 20 to age 65 = $9M
When Dunta wrote on his shoes that he needed money, he was going through the motions for the first game of a season that would give his family enough money to eat for the rest of their lives. Hell, they may even be able to eat out a few times a month.
I don’t think players shouldn’t try to get all they can, they are the ones generating the profits for the owners. But don’t use arguments that the players need to make money for their families. At least not in Dunta Robinson’s case.
Dunta's weightspeed was too low
by texanphil on Feb 24, 2010 11:15 AM CST up reply actions 2 recs
I didn't mean that turning down the contract made him whiny
I meant that, subsequent to turning down the contract, he became whiny by doing things like “Pay Me Rick” and complaining about how he was promised that he wouldn’t be franchised. Even if the latter is true, deal with it like a man and don’t cry “unfair” in the media. And, if you do decide to cry about it to the media, don’t act like the team should still want to hurry up and pay you when you haven’t shown anything since coming back from injury. Talking about how you are disappointed and feel like you are underpaid on your franchise-tag contract while simultaneously asking the team to ignore your lack of production is not likely to win you over in the hearts of fans/management.
I agree that we don’t know the terms of the alleged deal. However, the fact that Dunta didn’t refute the rumor by telling us what the contract really was speaks volumes when you consider that he wasn’t shy about telling us how the team promised not to tag him, etc. I find it highly unlikely that, if that wasn’t the offered deal, he or his agent wouldn’t have blasted back in the media to try and make Dunta look less like an ass.
The alleged contract was not a one-year deal. It was a multi-year deal for a dude whose own play the previous season suggested he hadn’t fully returned from an injury. That’s loyalty. Hell, that’s loyalty regardless of whether it was actually Chris Gamble money or not. You think Chester Pitts, who has been a helluva lot better for this team than Dunta, is going to get a multi-year offer in the next couple months? If Pitts comes back and plays his position at the level Dunta did in 2008, do you think the team is going to want to give him a multi-year deal?
One the other hand, if, by one-year deal, you are referring to the franchise tag, that was of his own making. He refused some offer and the team used its only available option because of it. Do you think the team should have let him walk once he turned down the contract? That’s just silly. Loyalty is all well and good, but at the end of the day this is a business and Dunta (or his agent) had to realize that turning down a contract that late in the game was likely to result in a tag. Attempting to hold the team over a barrel because you think you were promised not to be tagged isn’t loyalty. Besides, there are conflicting reports over whether he was promised by Rick that he wouldn’t be tagged or if Rick said that the team didn’t want to tag him.
I always assumed "You're The Reason God Made Oklahoma" would be some sort of country music diss track. Live and learn, I guess.
In that case
Ryans also “Whined” to the media when he spoke out against the way the Texans were handling the contract talks with himself, Dunta, and Owen Daniels… Speaking of Daniels, I believe he called out Rick Smith once or twice on it as well… Heck even Winston who already has a contract extension with the team, spoke out against management’s handling of Robinson, Ryans, and Daniels…
Maybe we just have a team full of whiners and crybabies.
The way he conducted himself.
That’s the primary reason.
And his horrible performance just kept adding to that hate.
I know that you try to start a dialogue about everything and I admire that. But when you’re asking ignorant questions like you haven’t been around here long enough to know the answer, it’s just annoying yo.
-1
by Jordann on Feb 24, 2010 10:52 AM CST up reply actions 7 recs
Skipping training camp and not getting on the same page as the new DC
That is probably the biggest transgression that moved him down in the team’s eyes. That fact had to weigh heavily on this decision.
I suppose if all of the stars, moons and planets align it could be possible, but what are the chances of that?
Actually, yes I would say the majority of the NFL are crybabies.
Boo ho! I should be getting 10 mil a year instead of 5 mil a year. I would be lucky to make five million in my lifetime. Am I going to get that money by playing a game? No. So yes, crybabies.
by theaxeeffect4311 on Feb 24, 2010 10:49 AM CST up reply actions
Julius Peppers
I believe had the opportunity to become either the highest paid defensive player in the game, or even any side of the ball, and he turned it down. It happens, players get greedy.
www.manningface.com
counterpoint
You won’t see me defend Dunta at all, or hope for him to be back. On the other hand, I would love for Kris Brown to snap out of his funk and reearn his job next year and come back strong. Difference? Kris Brown didn’t act like a fucking tool.
www.manningface.com
by nolander on Feb 24, 2010 11:25 AM CST up reply actions 3 recs
I can think of another difference between Kris Brown and Dunta
..of course you give the white guy the benefit of the doubt.
So long...
Farewell, auf Wiedersehen, Good-bye!
I want you gone, I cannot tell a lie!
by HoustonTransplant on Feb 24, 2010 9:03 AM CST reply actions 3 recs
Favorite Moment
Without a doubt, it was his return from injury against Detroit in ‘08. Reliant was rocking when they introduced him pre-game, even though he wasn’t starting.
He destroyed nearly all the goodwill he’d earned pre-injury with his antics last offseason and the early part of this season, but I’ll remember that.
Looking forward to a day when being a Texans fan doesn't mean that April is the highlight of my season...
That was a good moment
Too bad it wasn’t on the field of play….
I suppose if all of the stars, moons and planets align it could be possible, but what are the chances of that?
I think that moment
gave him the feeling that the organization would keep him at all costs, and the fans would always have his back v. management.
IMO, if he didn’t have that moment, he either signs the deal, or at least attends camp last season.
Dunta's weightspeed was too low
Looks like I am too late and now I just will look like a kiss ass who agrees with the CEO
but that was my favorite Dunta moment too. I still get goosebumps watching that clip, because it reminds me of the electricity that was in the air at that time. Moments like those are the ones that make it so fun to be a sports fan.
It never occurred to me that the fans’ over-the-top reaction to his return may have convinced him that he was an untouchable. At any rate it is truly a shame that a once promising career was derailed by a series of unfortunate events.
I have no ill will for Dunta. I wish him well, unless he is stupid enough to sign with the Colts, Jags or Titans.
It took the Astros 44 years to get to the Series, the Oilers-Texans are due to get to the big dance...Go Texans!!!!!
by oiler-texan diehard on Feb 24, 2010 10:10 PM CST up reply actions
My favorite
Is really a collection of moments. I admired the way Robinson played the game. These days there’s alot of cover corner in the mold of Deion Sanders who shy away from contact. Over the years Robinson has laid some wood to recievers, yes with shoulder tackles that sometimes backfire, that has caused many an incomplete pass or fumble in his career.
His body took quite a pounding for his feerless attitude on the field, and he always did so with a smile on his face. That’s the kind of player i’d want on my team any day of the week. He’s always been a risk taker and sometimes he gave up the big play, but he also made alot of plays for this team and for years was the best defensive player we had.
My favorite
was this year when he had 0 interceptions and the one chance he had to intercept the ball he came flying in from nowhere (his usual position) was almost horizontal in the air (when he really didn’t need to jump in the first place) and the ball hit him in the chest. Oh yeah, and when he got all excited about tackling a Colts player and then 5head went right out and threw a pass while he was still celebrating his tackle. We were all so proud of you then. That was the defining moment of what he has become.
With all that said I still think he was our best CB which say a lot about our corners. I am more than nervous for next year going into it with Quin and Frenchy as our starting CB’s. I pray we can find a good starting CB in the draft or in FA.
Confucius says "man who stands on toilet, high on pot".
by Bobobigbro on Feb 24, 2010 9:12 AM CST reply actions 2 recs
ESPN!
This just in, Texans will not franchise Dunta!
Adam Scheswhatever on Sports Center just now
by HoustonTransplant on Feb 24, 2010 9:21 AM CST reply actions
Improve?
I always assumed "You're The Reason God Made Oklahoma" would be some sort of country music diss track. Live and learn, I guess.
by MDC on Feb 24, 2010 9:24 AM CST up reply actions 3 recs
Tell us we can't run good play-action since we can't run the ball.
- Rivers McCown, From Mom's Basement | Twitter
by riversmccown on Feb 26, 2010 12:03 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I suppose this makes CB are #1 draft priority. So the question is, who will be on the board at #20, or can we trade back a bit?
Be judgmental about the actions of the past, be hopeful about the actions of the future. -The Homers Creed
Not necessarily
Considering you could improve your secondary by also having a nose tackle, the biggest priority is to draft the player who represents the biggest upgrade over what you have now.
I always assumed "You're The Reason God Made Oklahoma" would be some sort of country music diss track. Live and learn, I guess.
by MDC on Feb 24, 2010 9:30 AM CST up reply actions 2 recs
Another twenty page essay should do the trick.
by Jordann on Feb 24, 2010 9:45 AM CST up reply actions 6 recs
Looks can be deceiving.
Damn mittens.
by Jordann on Feb 24, 2010 10:41 AM CST up reply actions 2 recs
Yes
because dramatically increasing the pressure you get up front in no way helps your secondary. Each unit is wholly independent of the others. Clearly.
I always assumed "You're The Reason God Made Oklahoma" would be some sort of country music diss track. Live and learn, I guess.
by MDC on Feb 24, 2010 10:35 AM CST up reply actions 3 recs
That's why the Giants pass defense looked so good this season even without a pass rush...right?
by theaxeeffect4311 on Feb 24, 2010 10:39 AM CST up reply actions
Sarcasm, I assume?
I always assumed "You're The Reason God Made Oklahoma" would be some sort of country music diss track. Live and learn, I guess.
A little bit?
I just want to say I love how the Giants imploded after spending all of last off-season buying every D-line player they could.
by theaxeeffect4311 on Feb 24, 2010 10:53 AM CST up reply actions
NTs generally
Don’t get alot of pressure up front… Not to mention that the defensive scheme the Texans run isn’t known for playing “true NTs”, to think that adding a player who doesn’t fit the defensive scheme perfectly is going to be so dramatic an improvement that every unit on the field will look better because of him, is probably a bit inaccurate.
In that case...
Why is everyone assuming we’re taking a FS early in the draft? It’s not in our system to do so.
NT's don't get a lot of pressure up front?
Then what the fuck are they for?
by Jordann on Feb 24, 2010 10:53 AM CST up reply actions 2 recs
Lets put a bikini on Terrence Cody
by HoustonTransplant on Feb 24, 2010 10:59 AM CST up reply actions 4 recs
No, I don't
I’m still recovering from Andre Smith last year.
A Texans fan. Really. No, I'm not kidding.
http://www.battleredblog.com
So a picture of Terrence Cody and Andre Smith chest to chest would be too much for you?
by theaxeeffect4311 on Feb 24, 2010 4:37 PM CST up reply actions
The laws of physics don't apply to Terrence Cody
That is why he can dunk a basketball and do a back flip.
by theaxeeffect4311 on Feb 24, 2010 8:08 PM CST up reply actions
Not even weightspeed?
I always assumed "You're The Reason God Made Oklahoma" would be some sort of country music diss track. Live and learn, I guess.
It's why they invented weightspeed
because of Terrence Cody. What else could you use to explain how Cody can do a back flip?
by theaxeeffect4311 on Feb 24, 2010 11:35 PM CST up reply actions
Thanks for the primer on nose tackles.
Unfortunately, you ignore that good NTs do allow other people to get pressure because they take up more than one blocker consistently. So Amobi isn’t doubled and (more importantly) Mario is less likely to be doubled. There would also be additional lanes freed up for Bush’s ridiculous blitzes to have increased chance of success.
And he does fit the scheme, in that he would fix a problem that was glaringly obvious to everyone but Frank Bush and apparently you in 2009.
I always assumed "You're The Reason God Made Oklahoma" would be some sort of country music diss track. Live and learn, I guess.
by MDC on Feb 24, 2010 10:54 AM CST up reply actions 3 recs
You know who would help protect Mario?
Julius Peppers.
I’d rather give Peppers $12 mil a year over Dunta.
/dream
by TexansDC on Feb 24, 2010 10:56 AM CST up reply actions 2 recs
If only we could make the contract
a base of one million dollars with an additional mil for every sack he gets.
by theaxeeffect4311 on Feb 24, 2010 11:52 AM CST up reply actions
At which point he would completely stop trying to tackle RBs and just go for the QB every play :-p
www.manningface.com
Didn't say it was a perfect plan
just one idea for those who want Peppers that badly.
I, on the other hand, pass.
by theaxeeffect4311 on Feb 24, 2010 12:14 PM CST up reply actions
We run a Tampa-styled 4-3 defense
In this defensive scheme, as you’ve seen in Tapa Bay and with the Colts and now with the Texans, they use two more interchangeable tackles at both DTs position… really creating more of a LDT and RDT than the tradition UT and NT…
Both Cody and Okoye fit the scheme at DT, and there are several DTs in the draft that would fit the scheme as well, but the “space-eating NTs” don’t. What you’re describing is a completely different defensive scheme, which is fine if you’re lobbying for a new DC and scheme, but we’re talking about players that fit this team with this scheme and DC in place, because that’s what we’re going to have at least for the time being.
No, we don't
Aside from the fact that Kubiak, Dick Smith, and now Frank Bush have this vision of interchangeable DTs and (to a lesser extent) safeties, we don’t run a Tampa-2.
We rarely run a true cover-2 in that we normally, at least last season, had the SS in the box. Tampa-2 Ds, by definition, keep both safeties back and then roll the MLB back into the deep middle, almost creating a Cover-2.5 shell.
While I realize you technically said Tampa-styled rather than Tampa-2, even that is incorrect.
Tampa-2 Ds feature almost no blitzing; Frank Bush talked ad nauseam about how much more blitzing we did.
Tampa-2 Ds are generally undersized in the front seven; we have a traditionally sized under tackle, a monster in Mario at DE, a second DE that is big enough to play some DT on passing downs, a 6-3/250 strongside linebacker, and a middle linebacker who is slightly shorter than average but is not “undersized” at 250 lbs.
Tampa-2 Ds place an emphasis on LB coverage skills; we have Brian Cushing.
Tampa-2 Ds place an emphasis on speed along the defensive line; we have Shaun Cody and DelJuan Robinson getting most of the reps when they were both slower than Frank Okam in the 40.
Tampa-2 Ds, when they do blitz, generally do so with the free safety or a corner; we don’t.
Tampa-2 Ds, especially those in an Under front, generally place an emphasis on the WLB, both in coverage and in run support; we don’t even have Zac Diles on the field in obvious passing downs. (For proof of this last one, look at the tackle totals of the Colts’ WLBs over the past decade as compared with their SLBs.)
So, really, the only sense in which we’re a Tampa-styled 4-3 defense is because our NT is manned by undersized guys.
But, here’s the flipside, you suggest that our D could not be improved with a bigger NT because he wouldn’t “fit the scheme.” Given that Cushing, Mario, and Smith are all bigger than you would expect in a Tampa-2, by your logic, we’d be better off with smaller guys there as well because they would better fit the scheme.
I always assumed "You're The Reason God Made Oklahoma" would be some sort of country music diss track. Live and learn, I guess.
by MDC on Feb 24, 2010 2:17 PM CST up reply actions 7 recs
4-3 Under defense...
http://www.trojanfootballanalysis.com/43_under_blitz_schemes.html
This sounds like what our defense is supposed to be.
Who runs a 4-3 under? Pete Carroll. Where was he? USC. With? Brian Cushing. Who did what? Kick ass in our system.
Who runs a 4-3 under? Monte Kiffin. Where was he this season? Tennessee. Who did he coach? Dan Williams.
by TexansDC on Feb 24, 2010 2:34 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Dungy is...
If you read the link, Kiffin developed and perfected the 4-3 under. Tennessee definitely ran the 4-3 under last season as well.
Mark me down...
as glad you’re not dead.
/opinion subject to change at a later date
If the Treasury Secretary doesn't have to pay taxes, then why do I?
Facts have no place here
www.manningface.com
by nolander on Feb 24, 2010 3:25 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
if this whole BRB thing
is an attempt to get clients, I think its a success.
I’d like to put you on retainer.
Dunta's weightspeed was too low
As i've said in other posts
This defense is a hybrid of a traditional 4-3 defense (such as a 4-3 under) and a tampa styled defense.
This team is not a 4-3 under defense. From an alignment standpoint we hardly ever line up in a classic 4-3 under alignment. Furthermore in a 4-3 under the strong side backer will spend most of his time at or behind the line of scrimmage effectively playing as a 5th lineman… Cushing dropped back into coverage more times than not, to the dismay and disbelief of many fans over the course of the season.
I agree that there were people who billed this as a 4-3 under defense, but when you watch them play, they certainly don’t look like it.
At the same time they’re not a pure tampa 2 either as their line is always in one gap assignments, individual assignments tend to flip flop back and forth depending on affensive alignment and the situation.
As for the strong safety coverage, I seem to remember Pollard playing deep half zone quite a bit during the course of this past season…
"From an alignment standpoint we hardly ever line up in a classic 4-3 under alignment"
Incorrect. We used the 4-3 Under as a base on, to my eyes, at least 60% of our snaps. (Rivers can confirm or deny this number.)
I always assumed "You're The Reason God Made Oklahoma" would be some sort of country music diss track. Live and learn, I guess.
The only games where 4-3 under wasn't prevalent
Were the Indy games. That skews the overall numbers to something like 55%.
- Rivers McCown, From Mom's Basement | Twitter
by riversmccown on Feb 26, 2010 12:06 AM CST up reply actions
I don't know
When I think about it you might be on to something. There was a bit of hubub last offseason about the Texans running a 4-3 under defense, so maybe that was the plan in the beginning of the season…
Somehow, for some reason though, the Texans seemed to fall in cover2 zone quite a bit. I did comment several times throughout the season that at times this defense looks kind of like a hodgepodge of schemes like either Bush is trying to get the best of all worlds or he hasn’t quite figured out an identity for the team yet… maybe he was forced to compensate for our horrid secondary play and turned to the cover 2 philosphy because it minimizes the talent gap between DB and reciever a bit as long as it’s played effectively…
I don’t know, whatever the reason, we did play quite a bit of cover 2, which when added which made the front 7 look more like a tampa 2 styled defense as well… Maybe that wasn’t what Bush wanted his defense to be, but that’s what they were for a large portion of last season. If that’s the case though, i’m at a total loss as to what they’re doing. Is he trying to fix the secondary issues so that we can return to a 4-3 under exclusively, or are we going to continue with the “tampa 2” styled coverage because it did salvage our season defensively.
This I agree with.
The players fit the 4-3 under mold (aside from FS, NT, WLB), but there’s too much zone for that defense. It’s as if the secondary is doing one thing and the front-7 is doing another.
Bush really needs to get something straight. The hodgepodge defense isn’t the best situation nor what he promised.
I know you’re big on the Missouri LB…and maybe, if we were fantasy GMing the draft, we could (should) go him, then Cam Thomas in round 2, and Best Available FS in round 3 (with Montario Hardesty in round 4).
I'm thinking maybe Chris Cook in the 4th
He was originally projected as a late round prospect but now scouts are starting to wise up to the fact that he’s alot better than he showed this season when he was playing through a groin injury all year. In the senior bowl he certainly looked like a cover corner, which many scouts had doubts about before.
He’s around 6’2" and 210 lbs and has shown the ability to play safety as well… I think we could get a damn fine cover safety in Cook with a pretty cheap 4th round pick. He could possibly play corner in the NFL, but I drool when I think of him in coverage at the safety position.
I do like Cam Thomas as a NT moreso than Dan Williams
I’m just not sure where we stand scheme wise. Obviously if we really are a 4-3 under defense, Thomas would be a pretty good fit, and was the most dominant NT in the senior bowl by leaps and bounds.
Williams just seems too hot and cold for me, kind of like a poor man’s Albert Haynesworth, he makes some big plays but then he disappears for several player after. Thomas was a consistent clog in the center of the line.
Based on what, the senior bowl?
Don’t get me wrong, Cam seems like a legitimate prospect, but there’s a reason he spent the whole season behind Williams and Cody on these lists.
- Rivers McCown, From Mom's Basement | Twitter
by riversmccown on Feb 26, 2010 12:08 AM CST up reply actions
Good point and I really hadn’t thought about it like that. Now having said that what is your thoughts on Cody. There was a lot of buzz on him after the national championship game but then it seemed to fizzle once he got to the senior bowl. If Dan Williams is gone at 20 (or 19) do you take Cody or is that too much of a reach???
Confucius says "man who stands on toilet, high on pot".
I have no qualms taking Cody at 20
I know that’s not a completely popular opinion, but anyone who can play football competently at his weight is a freak of nature and should be regarded as such.
- Rivers McCown, From Mom's Basement | Twitter
by riversmccown on Feb 26, 2010 5:00 PM CST up reply actions
Partly for value
Williams was a one year wonder in college except for his one season with Kiffin, who’s probably the best D-line coach in the history of the game. Up untill then he was inconsistent, had rumored “attitude” problems with coaches, took plays off ect… I would be very nervous about spending a 1st round pick on him, maybe you get the player he was last year, but maybe you get the guy he was before Kiffin showed up and kicked him in the pants.
In the senior bowl those concerns were magnified as he was hot and cold all game. He made a few good plays, but there were also several plays ending with him being pushed 5 yards behind the line of scrimmage while being single blocked by a guard. If you’re drafting a DT in the 1st, a position that seems to bust pretty often as first round picks, i’d think you’d want a guy who’s dominant every time he lines up rather than every third or fourth play.
Cody just does not fit a 4-3 scheme in any way you choose to run the scheme. He can only play 3-4 NT in the NFL so it’s a waste of time to even discuss Cody as a Texan.
Cam Thomas was behind Williams and Cody all season because he played in a defense that didn’t play their line aggressively, but rather played gap control up front and let the LBs chase down plays. As a result he didn’t have many stats to speak of, but you only have to look at film of him play either at North Carolina, or in the Senior Bowl to see that he dominates at the point of attack and consistently wins the battle. He also has good lateral quickness and agility for a 330lb NT, which will allow him to play the 4-3 NT. Considering that he can be had in the 2nd or 3rd round, it’d be a much better deal than a 1st on a one year wonder like Williams, or a player who would be a terrible fit for the scheme in Cody.
I think him playing well under Kiffin is a great thing
Kiffin’s a pro coach. He responded really well to a pro system/coach. This is the same Kiffin who is a master of the 4-3 under and the Tampa 2…which means he should be able to fit into our hodgepodge of a system. Why would that shy anyone off?
As for the attitude problems…he’s a young kid. Sometimes you have to grow up.
I do like Thomas and think he should be on the realistic draft board, but there’s got to be a reason why Williams entered the season ahead of Thomas…and has stayed ahead of him.
It shouldn't
But the fact the he only had one good season in college is an eye raiser, as is reports of him having a poor work ethic and not getting along with coaches in the past.
I agree, sometimes it’s just a case of someone needing to grow up, then again sometimes it’s a case of the “kid” taking his last season seriously to increase his pay check at the next level just as there are players in the NFL who seemingly only have great seasons in contract years when they have other motivations than pride and competetiveness.
As I said, there is reason they were ahead of him, the system Thomas played in doesn’t translate to statistics for defensive tackles. I think that’s alot of the reason why there’s so many 1st round busts at DT, teams pick players who looked the most dominant in college but on the line defensive schemes account more for those statistics or lack thereof than “talent”.
Williams was an average DT untill he plays in a system under the probably the best DC in college. Not only is he benefitting from the coach calling the right defense to put him in position to make a play, but also since the defense was in its first year the opposition wasn’t prepared for it as they would be had it been there all along. It’s easy to see how Williams’ stats could be inflated, Thomas’ stats can’t be inflated because he doesn’t really have any. All he does is what the defensive coaches tell him to do, watch film of him and he’s pushing 2 linemen into the backfield consistently.
I'm not sure why you keep calling him a one year wonder
especially when Dan Williams’ worst college year as a starter (2007), he still put up better stats than Cam Thomas’ best year. He didn’t have Kiffin that year so was that just Dan being Dan? I’m not in love with the guy, but I do think that a legit NT would help our defense. If Dan can fill that role better than Cam, and there are none of the better OTs to take in the first round, Dan sounds like a reasonable choice.
by theaxeeffect4311 on Feb 26, 2010 2:22 PM CST up reply actions
Kiffin, who’s probably the best D-line coach in the history of the game
Ed Orgeron was his D-Line coach last year. As far as I can tell, Monte has never been a D-Line coach.
Williams excelled in Monte’s system, but any position coaching he got was most likely Orgeron. It takes a lot of Red Bull to coach a guy up and orchestrate secondary violations all of the country at the same time.
Dunta's weightspeed was too low
Considering Quin is now our #1 CB, I think we will need some serious help in the draft considering who is behind him in the depth chart. I can’t see us going any further than the second round without taking a corner.
Be judgmental about the actions of the past, be hopeful about the actions of the future. -The Homers Creed
I don't disagree
that a corner is needed. I just don’t agree that losing Dunta necessarily makes corner the #1 priority now.
I always assumed "You're The Reason God Made Oklahoma" would be some sort of country music diss track. Live and learn, I guess.
Right, we're definitely not taking a corner in the first round
Other than Joe Haden, none are worth taking in the first round. There are plenty to take in the second round though.
by theaxeeffect4311 on Feb 24, 2010 10:50 AM CST up reply actions
This
You don’t automatically trade back to fill corner.
You have to see who is available at 20 and how they can improve your team.
CB doesn’t need to be a round 1 pick. We could address that in FA or round 2.
Let’s not all panic and run around screaming that the sky is falling. It’s only….February.
I don’t really see any other attractive FA corners that would be anything more than a stop gap really. Its a shame Molden is made of glass, I had high hopes for him.
Be judgmental about the actions of the past, be hopeful about the actions of the future. -The Homers Creed
Leigh Bolden
However, it’s February. We got some time to find a replacement.
I have to imagine that Smithiak has been preparing for this for a while…(as ESPN tells me Scrabble may be on the trading block).
I get the impression he wants to stay with the Patriots though. Plus we’d have to pay him probably more than we were going to pay Dunta.
Be judgmental about the actions of the past, be hopeful about the actions of the future. -The Homers Creed
I'd pay more for a better CB
However, if Scrabble is up on the trading block…I’d seriously inquire about it.
Scrabble?
It’s not in the Glossary of BRB Terms!
I’m guessing Raiders CB?
by HoustonTransplant on Feb 24, 2010 10:17 AM CST up reply actions
If you can spell it...
I think it’s worth 50 points with no double or triple word scores.
I suppose if all of the stars, moons and planets align it could be possible, but what are the chances of that?
To confirm if you are correct, I would have to Google
but i’m too lazy to do that….
I suppose if all of the stars, moons and planets align it could be possible, but what are the chances of that?
Nnamdi Asomugha
You got it right. If he’s on the trading block…let’s sign a track star and offer him to Crazy Al for a true CB.
I don't think Bodden is a great fit for us
As for the draft, it’s starting to look to me like the best player available that fits our offensive or defensive schemes will be Sean Weatherspoon. You never know how things will turn out at this point in the offseason, but my opinion as of now is that if Weatherspoon is available grab him, needs be damned.
So you mock the mention of getting a NT
and now you’re continuing your push for a LB (arguably our best unit)…
Edit:
Because that’s how I troll.
/fixed
//trolled
by Jordann on Feb 24, 2010 10:05 AM CST up reply actions 5 recs
Believe it or not
A person can believe a WLB that truly fits our scheme would be more beneficial to us than a NT who doesn’t, without trying to troll.
The Who?
They were a 60’s rock band, probably most well known for the song “My Generation”….
I don’t see how this is relevant though…
Of course you wouldn't defend your stance.
by theaxeeffect4311 on Feb 24, 2010 10:23 AM CST up reply actions
Yes, your defense was solid
just like when someone says that the world is flat. Your just using your opinion, that’s not defending your argument.
by theaxeeffect4311 on Feb 24, 2010 10:37 AM CST up reply actions
I said
Adding a WLB that fits our defensive scheme is a better addition than a NT that doesn’t…
That’s my position, if you want me to defend it further you’re going to have to challenge it. I’m not going to defend my opinion when no one has said anything contrary to it as of yet.
The problem with your position
is that it presupposes than a nose tackle wouldn’t fit our scheme. We are lining up small defensive tackles in the 0- or 1-technique and asking them to hold the point and/or take on two blockers, neither of which they can do and both of which a true NT could do.
I always assumed "You're The Reason God Made Oklahoma" would be some sort of country music diss track. Live and learn, I guess.
by MDC on Feb 24, 2010 10:56 AM CST up reply actions 2 recs
But that's what our scheme calls for
The two DTs both play closer to an UT role than NT, so both DTs need to be quicker and more agile than the prototypical NT, which usually means the team is undersized at the “NT” position if you look at it that way.
In reality though there isn’t a true “NT” position in this defense except for goaline/short yardage packages, which make a first round “NT” pick a pretty costly part time player at best. Unless of course you’re changing the defensive scheme, but since the coaching staff remains intact, i’d wager on us keeping the scheme we have pretty much as is with maybe a few minor tweaks here and there.
If we could find a NT
Who was athletic enough to fit our scheme, I agree that would be best case scenerio and probably why they were looking at Dan Williams at the senior bowl to see if he could be that guy…
Unfortunately, from what I saw of him then I don’t think he could do it. I saw him go against Iupati solo and lack the strength to bull through him and the agility or technique to use any kind of speed move to exploit Iupati’s average quickness and agility… The result more times than not with that pairing was Williams being driven backwards.
So you are OK with the run defense the way it is?
by theaxeeffect4311 on Feb 24, 2010 11:16 AM CST up reply actions
You're OK with Chris Johnson running all over our defense?
by theaxeeffect4311 on Feb 24, 2010 11:17 AM CST up reply actions
The run defense
Improved greatly as the season progressed. I’d be willing to be that if we played the Titans at the end of the season Johnson wouldn’t have had near the big runs he did early in the season.
yeah,
I think CJ only gained 140+ or so yards in the second game towards the end of the season.
Confucius says "man who stands on toilet, high on pot".
If only
we had tried a HB pass… I think we could have won that game.
Or if Dunta had played in that game he would have got an interception. Instead there was some guy out there running around in a #23 jersey flying around like superman with hands of steel. You saw how he defended that pass with the S on his chest.
Confucius says "man who stands on toilet, high on pot".
In fact
In our second game against the Titans we held Johnson scoreless… He still put up his yards, like he did to pretty much every other team in the league, but there’s no doubt we played better containment D in the 2nd game than the first.
Oh, well I'm glad that better containment
since White did score a touchdown run, Johnson ran for 154 yards, Young ran for 73 yards, and we lost the game. I’m glad you consider mediocrity where you want the Texans to be.
by theaxeeffect4311 on Feb 24, 2010 11:27 AM CST up reply actions
As I said
The Titans ran the ball well against pretty much everyone…
If you look at the rushing defense over the course of the year, we were pretty effective vs the run.
Again,
I’m glad you’re OK with being mediocre. I want the Texans to be great. So yeah, I want the defense to get better.
by theaxeeffect4311 on Feb 24, 2010 11:38 AM CST up reply actions
They finished the season
Ranked 11th in the league in rushing yards allowed, if that’s mediocre yea i’ll take it every year.
Again, I'm glad you're happy with mediocre
by theaxeeffect4311 on Feb 24, 2010 12:16 PM CST up reply actions
I'm glad you're glad then
Although it does surprise me a little that finishing in the top 1/3 of the league in a category is mediocre.
It's not top 5
So it’s not considered one of the best. So I’m not satisfied. Wen we have to face the Titans and Jags twice a year who are both running teams, we need to be able to stop the run. Just to remind you, we lost 3 out of those 4 games.
by theaxeeffect4311 on Feb 24, 2010 1:03 PM CST up reply actions
when you go
1-5 in division play and the Tits and the Jags run all over you to end the game, then yes, I too would call that mediocre and unacceptable.
Confucius says "man who stands on toilet, high on pot".
Math Fail
how is it top third? 33/3=11 while 32/3=10.66666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666…ect.
last I checked 11=/=10.66…ect
Miss-placed Houstonian living and going to school in the wilderness of Wyoming. Fresno St. 28 - Wyoming 35 (2 OT)!!! Hands down best game I have ever been to.
I feel skinny
Oh so skinny
I'll eliminate you like I eliminate gluten from my diet.
by tehGrindCrusher on Feb 25, 2010 2:05 AM CST up reply actions
Of course he is
Shaun Cody is going to have a 100% run stop rate again! Easily. Count it.
- Rivers McCown, From Mom's Basement | Twitter
by riversmccown on Feb 26, 2010 12:09 AM CST up reply actions 2 recs
Also...
Do we run a tampa 2 like he’s claiming? I thought it was a 4-3 under? Not huge, but if he’s supporting his argument that we don’t need a big NT because TB and Indy never had one and we don’t even run their defense, then… well… that sucks.
Bacon tastes good... Pork chops taste good.
by beefy on Feb 24, 2010 2:29 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
No
Back then they were a teen-angst inspired rock band, now The Who is a band of jerriatrics milking the cash cow…
They’re two completely different bands… Am I the only one who was like “WTF” when the old geasers started singing Teenage Wasteland?
So they are the same band
Thanks for the clarification.
by Jordann on Feb 24, 2010 10:35 AM CST up reply actions 2 recs
I don't disagree
that Weatherspoon would be a great fit. And given my stance on Diles, I’d be fairly happy with pick. But not if Dan Williams or (possibly, depending on his Combine) Terrence Cody is on the board. We currently have no real NT*, and that fact was a glaring problem all year long. Weatherspoon should be a decent upgrade over Diles. Williams would be a huge upgrade over the non-existent player.
*Claiming he doesn’t fit our scheme is silly. The biggest problem with our scheme is that the blitzes are horribly uninspired and the front four aren’t getting enough pressure on their own. A NT wouldn’t make Bush any more creative, but it would alleviate the second problem.
I always assumed "You're The Reason God Made Oklahoma" would be some sort of country music diss track. Live and learn, I guess.
by MDC on Feb 24, 2010 10:40 AM CST up reply actions 2 recs
Agreed.
But I think we will most likely grab a CB or FS (Earl Thomas) if we don’t find a replacement for Dunta in free agency or via trade. The reason I say Earl Thomas, is that he can easily be converted to CB, due to his cover skills. Later in his career he can transition back to FS, that is once Eugene is done.
I am not thinking that CB is the highest of priorities
The Texans have 3 adequate CBs competing for 3 spots in Quin, Reeves and McCain. If Molden can ever keep all his limbs attached, that would make 4. I won’t include Bennett in the conversation because he may be on the way out, also. So, I am not saying CB is not on the menu, just not the entree of the day (1st round). I still am a big proponent of getting a stud O-lineman in the 1st round, of which there should be 2 or 3 to choose from in the 19/20 position.
In the 2nd round, I am all for picking a defensive player, and probably the best player available, be that a NT, CB, WLB, S….take your pick.
I suppose if all of the stars, moons and planets align it could be possible, but what are the chances of that?
Yes
I put it in the same place where I put Dunta’s “Pay Me Rick” memo…
I suppose if all of the stars, moons and planets align it could be possible, but what are the chances of that?
No
I used it right before I flushed….
I suppose if all of the stars, moons and planets align it could be possible, but what are the chances of that?
Look arguing with someone like Bryan is beyond pointless
He is going to argue ANYTHING to defend his original point, no matter how stupid it makes him look.
www.manningface.com
You’re talking about the problem with our scheme again… When the coaching staff is returining intact you have to assume the scheme will remain the same…
Saying that both DTs, even the one occupying the “NT” position in this defense has to be quick, with good lateral agility, isn’t silly. It’s just simple fact, based on how the team uses the position. If you can find a “true” NT that brings those qualities then you’ve found a perfect fit for our defense, unfortunately those are very rare, and when one comes around it’s a pretty safe bet he’s not going to be available at pick #20.
As far as Williams, not only do I not think he could fit our scheme perfectly, very few mock drafts these days have him falling to #20… and the second best NT prospect is Cody and he can’t play any position really but 3-4 NT, so he’s definitely not a fit.
To avoid having to describe their defensive scheme for the umpteenth time
I’ll provide a link to a wikipedia page describing the defense… Again, our defensive scheme is an offshoot of the tampa defense. We blitz more than a traditional tampa two defense, but the general principles remain the same for the most part.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tampa_2
To save you time here is a quote describing why agility and quickness is a must for linemen, “To defend running plays, the Tampa 2 is a single gap defense where each player is responsible to defend his own gap. The assigned gap changes with game conditions and personnel. Typically this style of defense utilizes smaller but faster linemen and linebackers with above average speed”
It’s not a matter of big “space eaters” being unable to play the scheme because of their size, but that quickness and agility is a must in this defense and many “space eaters” don’t have much of either.
What are you going to do if the Texans draft a NT?
by theaxeeffect4311 on Feb 24, 2010 12:51 PM CST up reply actions
I'm going to assume
That they scouted him and believe him to be quick and agile enough to play the position for them.
So if they draft Dan Williams then your assessment of him is wrong?
by theaxeeffect4311 on Feb 24, 2010 12:57 PM CST up reply actions
Yes
And it wouldn’t be the first time. Whatever the Texans do, i’ll bow to their experience and expertise but untill then i’ll continue to throw around my own opinions just as everyone else is doing.
We definitely don't run a Tampa 2
Did you read that reliable source? It says things like team speed and aggressive…cause turnovers…blitzing FS or CB…..
That doesn’t sound at all like our defense.
by TexansDC on Feb 24, 2010 1:52 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
If you watch our coverage and line
It’s very similar to the tampa defenses, kinda like a 3rd cousing of the Colt’s D really. Pure tampa2 defenses don’t blitz often, but I never said we were a pure tampa2 defense. I said we have alot of the same principles, which we do, so alot of the qualities that makes a player “fit” the tampa2 style makes him fit ours and vise versa.
When we play zone, our coverage is almost identicle to the tampa2 style, and we play zone most of hte time. Sometimes even when we blitz we play zone.
Our DTs seem to have single gap responsibilities rather than the two gap that a “true” NT would play, or at least either one on a given play will either be a 1 gap or 2 gap DT… you can say it’s because of personel but there’s no way to change gap responsibilities without changing the scheme on a pretty base level.
I’m not just pulling this out my butt, you can watch this year’s games and see this on film. Whether it’s successfull or not is another debate, but that’s the style of defense they’re playing and unless they decide to change that style it’s unlikely they draft a “true NT” unless they feel he can fit in with what they’re doing now and play 1 gap as well as 2.
I can assure you he read it and decided to completely disregard it.
www.manningface.com
by nolander on Feb 24, 2010 7:55 PM CST up reply actions 5 recs
I read it
It was just inaccurate, very rarely did we line up in a 4-3 under alignment last season that I saw.
I mean at least try man
MDC didn’t say anything about us running a 4-3 under. Instead he compared our defense in a number of ways to the Tampa 2 and pointed out differences. Your argument basically completely ignores his arguments.
www.manningface.com
Like I responded to his post
Alot of the comparrisons he used were inaccurate.
Pollard didn’t play underneath zone all that often, most of the time that i’ve been able to see, Pollard has played a deep half zone.
I also remember seeing a few safety blitzes last season as well, which he commented that we don’t do at all. And tampa2 defenses do blitz linebackers as well, they just don’t blitz frequently, which is partly why we’re not a pure tampa2 defense.
I didn't say Pollard played underneath zone
I said we frequently had a SS up in the box, which we did. And we sent Pollard on a few blitzes, but the primary blitzes (by far) were LBs in our scheme, which you don’t do in a Tampa-2.
Even more to the point, we almost never dropped DeMeco into the deep middle, which is the entire linchpin of the Tampa-2. Cover-2 does not equal Tampa-2.
I always assumed "You're The Reason God Made Oklahoma" would be some sort of country music diss track. Live and learn, I guess.
Can you explain the differences between a tampa 2 alignment and a 4-3 under alignment?
by theaxeeffect4311 on Feb 24, 2010 8:14 PM CST up reply actions
In a 4-3 under alignment, the WLB will line up just outside of the weakside end, the MLB lines up between the weakside tackle and end and the SLB lines up on the line on the strong side….
Tampa 2 defenses align all 3 LBs behind the line…
Very seldom that i’ve seen have we lined up in a classes 4-3 under alignment. We have done it a few times I believe, but not with any real consistency.
More times than not Cushing lined up behind the line of scrimmage and dropped into coverage rather than crash the TE.
Yes, but what did they do once the play started?
You mention Cushing, but what else?
by theaxeeffect4311 on Feb 24, 2010 11:42 PM CST up reply actions
To the extent we shifted our 4-3
it was almost exclusively into an Under formation. But, more to the point in this discussion, we never ran anything approximating a Tampa-2. So, regardless of what percentage of the time we were in an Under, your premise that we run a Tampa-style defense is patently false.
I always assumed "You're The Reason God Made Oklahoma" would be some sort of country music diss track. Live and learn, I guess.
I don't think so.
We didn’t shift our alignment much at all, that’s part of it being so vanilla.
We didn’t have a LB on the line much at all except for when we were blitzing, and if you don’t have your SLB on the line it’s not a 4-3 under alignment.
Furthermore, I never said we ran a tampa 2 but rather a tampa styled defense… The tampa 2 was made famous by Dungy and Monte Kiffin when they made a rendition of the Steelers old “steel curtain” cover 2 defense for the Bucs…. in which Kiffen employed alot of the same principles he had with the defense he had run up to that point, the 4-3 under.
The 4-3 under defense, also got its legs from Monte Kiffin and shares alot of the same principles. More often than not the defensive line has 1 gap responsibilities, and as you’ve said in another post it is often pairs with a cover 2 shell as well…
By arguing that we’re not a tampa styled defense but a 4-3 under defense, you’re kind of splitting hairs because you can argue that both tampa 2 and the 4-3 under are tapa styled defenses. Or maybe the proper term would be Kiffen styled… either way, alot of times these two defense are similar to one another in both the secondary coverage and the assignments on the line, which would make “fits” for the defenses similar as well.
When you add 1 gap linemen and cover 2 shell, you have a defense that shares alot of the same principles and looks like a tampa styled defense. If you are a 1 gap team, you need faster, more athletic DTs and you need speed and athleticism in your LB unit.
Sometimes the 4-3 under is used with 2 gap principles and cover 1 or man coverage, but that’s not the way we used it this past year, even if you’re correct that we’re trying to be a 4-3 under defense… I still say I haven’t seen alot of that, but even you’re right, that doesn’t change the fact that the defensive principles we used last year would make a slow and plodding NT a poor fit for our team as long as it’s run the same next year. I’d wager a large part of why we showed interest in Williams was because he worked well for one year in a Kiffen coached defense, so there was the possiblity of him being a match here.
As I said earlier though
From how chaotic the scheme looked this year, it’s possible that Bush’s intent was to have a bigger more traditional 4-3 version of the 4-3 under, but had to scrap that to compensate for the team’s horrible secondary play…
I say that because it’s kind of strange to see a “Kiffen styled” defense blitz so much, but remember Bush pretty much kept the old defensive schemes intact for the most part, which were more traditionally tampa styled, he just wanted to add more blitzing. My interpretation is that Bush is trying to add aggressive blitzing to a tampa/kiffen styled defense, and so far it hasn’t appeared to have worked that seamlessly.
It's interesting to watch
But sometimes it’s interesting kind of like a train wreck… The blitzes put pressure on the QB but also weaken our zone to the extent that there’s almost always a wide open reciever in a seam of the zone very early for the QB to zone in on.
Which leads me full circle
In explaining why I think Weatherspoon would be a good pick for us in the 1st.
His speed and cover skill will allow him to cover more ground and at the very least prevent some of those underneath routes becoming first downs when we blitz. Diles gives it his all, but this defense would look alot better on the field with a true cover WLB that is often used in “kiffen styled” defenses.
His speed and quickness will also be an improvement in the run game as in 1 gap defenses LB speed is a premium and Diles has average speed at best for a WLB.
On Weatherspoon
you and I are in total agreement. And I think we’re the only two people in the world who would take him at 20. I suppose the only difference is that I think he’d improve our D regardless of whether we’re running a pure 1-gap front or not. I also question if Weatherspoon is more of an upgrade over Diles than Williams would be over Cody, but I think that’s at least arguable.
I always assumed "You're The Reason God Made Oklahoma" would be some sort of country music diss track. Live and learn, I guess.
The Tampa-2
is predicated around a MLB dropping into the deep middle zone a lot. We almost never did that. It also has the WLB in coverage a lot (moreso than the SLB), which even you admit we didn’t do.
Conversely, you underestimate the frequency of putting Cushing on the line. We did it frequently enough that we actually had two different formations for it—one a standard Under with Cushing outside the DE and one used only when Mario was on the strongside where Cushing was actually inside the DE. We even had a variation on that first formation where Barwin played the SLB role and Cushing the WLB.
My theory — and I see a new post from you has just popped up which kind of hits on this — is that only reason we had our NT trying to be a 1-gap player from the 0-technique is because all the guys at that position were too small to play 2-gap.
I think you’ll agree that the two most common 4-3 defenses that run almost exclusively out of a cover-2 shell are the Tampa version, which uses four smaller linemen, or the old Baltimore Ravens/Green Bay Packers version where at least one (and sometimes both) of the DTs are large 2-gap players (think Gilbert Brown).
We obviously don’t have small ends, and Amobi is the prototypical size for an under tackle, so I can’t see why you would assume we are trying to run the Tampa form when we are in Cover-2. When you throw in that our SLB and MLB are both larger than you would find in a Tampa-2/Tampa-style defense (for example, Gary Brackett is 5-11/235), that DeMeco rarely if ever plays deep middle zone, and that we blitz LBs infinitely more than we blitz CBs, I think it’s fairly clear that Bush isn’t aiming for that style.
NOW…all that said, I don’t disagree that Bush had Cody/Robinson playing 1-gap NT the majority of the time. My theory — and I see a new post from you has just popped up which kind of hits on this — is that only reason we had our NT trying to be a 1-gap player from the 0-technique is because all the guys at that position were too small to play 2-gap. If we are trying to run the non-Tampa-2 form of the 4-3/Cover-2 base D, then bringing in someone who can play the 2-gap role from that position is going to be an upgrade because it’s the one part that our otherwise solid front is so sorely lacking. (Well that and a real WLB, but I digress.)
I also don’t know that you can call Richard Smith’s Ds Tampa-styled. We played 8 in the box/ Cover-1 to a disgusting degree in ’08.
I always assumed "You're The Reason God Made Oklahoma" would be some sort of country music diss track. Live and learn, I guess.
I don't think it's obvious
What Bush’s intentions are either way. The only thing that’s obvious is that last year’s team ran cover 2 and 1 gap principles the vast majority of the time.
As i’ve said before, when a coaching staff remains intact you almost have to assume that they’re not going to make any major changes in how they do things. So while I think it’s “possible” that Bush wants to go the more traditional 4-3 route, untill I see otherwise i’m going to assume the defensive principles he used last year was what he’s going to use this year.
I really didn’t notice Cushing on the line that often, but in any rate allignment doesn’t dictate “fit” as much as base defensive principles. it’s hard to find a true 2 gap NT who can also play 1 gap, so if you go under the assumption that we’re going to continue to be a 1 gap defense in order for a “space eating” NT to fit he’d have to be able to play 1 gap, at which point he’d likely stop “eating space” anyway.
I guess what it boils down to is whether you think Bush is going to make major changes on how his defense was run from a year ago or if you believe he’s just going to try to find players who can make last year’s defense work.
To be perfectly honest
I’d rather that he did make major changes, as some of the things he did last season just don’t make alot of sense… I just have a hard time believing that to be the case, I think he’ll take last year’s progression towards the end of the season as a sign that what he was doing “works” and we’ll probably see much of the same.
God, I hope you are wrong
but I’m afraid you aren’t. Yeah, our run D ranked well come season’s end, but I chalk that up as much to Cushing over Diles as SLB, Smith over Anthony Weaver, no Travis Johnson, as I do to scheme. And our pass D didn’t improve from the Richard Smith days, which is really disheartening.
All that said, I still think you can plug a 2-gap NT into the system we ran last year and see improvement. There’s nothing that says putting one in couldn’t free up space for Mario or Amobi and make them better 1-gap players.
I always assumed "You're The Reason God Made Oklahoma" would be some sort of country music diss track. Live and learn, I guess.
The only reason
You didn’t see Ryans play middle zone more frequently than he did was because we blitz more than tampa 2 defenses do. When we played full zone, he certainly did play middle zone.
The reason I said from the beginning that we have a tampa-styled defense is because of the cover2 we frequently run and the 1 gap responsibilities of our front 7. Both are distinct qualities of the tampa 2 and it’s those qualities that puts demands on the “type” of player that fit the system.
I never said we run a tampa 2 defense, so pointing out that we don’t run tampa 2 really is doing nothing but stating the obvious.
As for the ends we play, Mario Williams is a freak of nature. He’s a giant 290 LB end, but don’t forget that he’s a speed rusher as well, which is what fits the scheme. Smith, in all fairness, played a combination of end and tackle last year with Barwin who is strictly a speed rusher coming in on obvious passing downs.
Okoye has the size of traditional UTs, but he also possesses above average quickness and agility for his position, you can’t always get hung up on hight and weight, it’s their physical capabilities that really matter. I’m not sure the Texans intended for their line to be the size it is, so much as they’ve assembled a line that has size and also the speed and quickness to play 1 gap defense.
Maybe they played 1 gap because that’s what fit the players they had on the line best… but they brought the players in that put them in that position, so either there was a massive break in communication somewhere along the lines when building the roster or they were building the roster with this scheme in mind.
It’s not that hard to find 2 gap NTs, if that’s what they felt was needed they could have adressed that. It’s 2 gap NTs who have the ability to play 1 gap that are rare. It’s hard to find versatility at the NT position, finding one of the two extremes isn’t near as difficult.
Cover-2 and 1-gap
isn’t any more Tampa-styled than it is Jim-Johnson-styled. Lots of 4-3 defenses run that combination of shell and assignment. Hell, at this point, most 4-3s run Cover-2 as a base shell, so that really tells you nothing. 1-gap responsibility is the heart of Jim Johnson’s D and no one would have confused that with a Tampa-styled defense.
The Tampa-2 has three defining characteristics that set it apart from other 4-3s: 1) smaller guys in the front seven, 2) MLB in deep middle zone, and 3) more blitzing from safeties/cbs than LBs.
We have NONE of that, which is why I keep disagreeing with you that it’s Tampa-styled.
However, if your basis for Tampa-styled is merely the Cover-2/1-gap scheme, then you’ve created a broad category that encompasses the majority of today’s 4-3s. It would be like me saying my car was Ferrari-styled because it had four wheels and bucket seats.
As for why it wasn’t addressed before, I don’t have an answer. However, when it’s been glaringly obvious that the team needed a real NT ever since we switched to the 4-3, I think the real question is why no one has questioned whether the plan (such as it is) is really the best approach. Richard Smith crowed constantly about how he liked his DTs and Safeties interchangeable, despite the fact that his defenses were abysmal. Obviously, you aren’t going to overhaul the D in one offseason, but continuing to stick with the undersized NT alongside regular (or larger) sized DEs, UT, and LBs is asinine.
But now were off on a tangent. Back to the discussion: If your only criteria for Tampa-styled is Cover-2 and 1-gap, then, ok, it’s Tampa-styled. Also, I look like Brad Pitt because we both have eyes and are from Missouri.
I always assumed "You're The Reason God Made Oklahoma" would be some sort of country music diss track. Live and learn, I guess.
The only reason they had smaller guys in the front 7 is because that’s what is required with teams who play 1 gap D.
I don’t see how it’s inaccurate to say that 1 gap defenses rely on speed and quickness moreso than size and power in the front 7. Neither is it crazy to say that Kiffin and Dungy were the masterminds behind the re-emergence of the cover2/1 gap combination… Yes there have been alot of offshoots of it, alot of people sprinkling their philosphies into their own defense, but up untill then the 3-4 was king.
Johnson’s defensive philosophies that made the university of Miami and Johnson himself famous, was shockingly to play cover 2 and a 1 gap philosophy in the front 7, which also happened to feature LBs who looked more like safeties in size and stature and linemen who looked more like linebackers… In other words speed and agility was a premium in his defense as well… So I fail to see how my point about that isn’t valid, you’re just splitting hairs on who I should give credit for inspiring this defense.
I never said...
that it was inaccurate. I said it’s inaccurate to say that we are a Tampa-styled defense when we lack all of the characteristics that set a Tampa-style defense apart from other forms of the 4-3.
Jim Johnson is the Eagles’ former DC. You’re thinking of Jimmy Johnson.
“The only reason they had smaller guys in the front 7 is because that’s what is required with teams who play 1 gap D.”
Exactly. And we don’t have that. We don’t have the thing you just said is REQUIRED for your interpretation of what constitutes a Tampa-style defense.
Succinctly, again: Conclusion: We have a Tampa-style defense. There are three characteristics that make a Tampa-2 defense different from other 4-3/Cover-2 Ds. We lack all three of those. Logically, it follows that we are not a Tampa-style D.
I always assumed "You're The Reason God Made Oklahoma" would be some sort of country music diss track. Live and learn, I guess.
Characteristics of a tampa 2 defense
1. All positions place a premium on speed and tackling ability
The Texans have for the past several years stressed that they want to increase team speed on defense, their corners tend to be more willing tacklers than the Deion Sanders mold of CB, their tackles are both quick and have above average lateral quickness, and 2 of their top 3 DEs are speed rushers. I’d consider this a check
2. The two safeties are responsible for their halves of the field deep
The Texans play mostly cover 2 zone in which the safeties play 2 deep. check
3. The tampa 2 requires linebackers and corners to be above average tacklers as they’re counted on to make most of the tackles
Ryans and Cushing are very good tacklers. Quin who worked his way into the starting lineup, was raved about this past offseason by his coaches for his sure tackling and many fans thinking he could play free safety in part for this reason. Check
4. The middle linebacker plays middle zone 10-20 yards beyond the line of scrimmage
Our Middle linebacker plays zone within 15 yards of the line of scrimmage. So there you have it, because we play Ryans 5 yards closer to the line of scrimmage than Tampa Bay played their MLB, it’s wrong for me to say their are similarites between the two.
The point is
I’m not an expert analyst, i’m just a guy who watches football and likes to gab on msg boards.
It’s hard not to see similarities in the two defenses, and because of those similarities the same type of players fit both systems…, Maybe it was un PC to say it was Tampa styled, but it’s the wording I chose because everyone knows what the Tampa 2 is and the type of player that fits it, so calling it tampa styled cuts down on having to explain exactly what we have in common with the tampa 2 and what qualities by position are important to fit the scheme.
Unfortunately, I had to do all of that anyway because it stuck in your craw that I labeled it “tampa styled”, so here we are. You’ve admitted to those similarites, and if the defense remains the same next year the qualities i’ve mentioned are what fit this team best.
If it’s what would make you happy, fine, this isn’t a tampa styled defense. All I was saying is that because of the scheme that we ran last year, if we run the same scheme in the future certain qualities are more important than others for each position. I didn’t realize that using the word “tampa” to point out those qualities was going to be such a faux pas.
The fact that we're even arguing about what defense we run...
…is a testament to the lack of a plan there.
Yes, we had the best defense in franchise history last season, but the pressure is on Frank Bush to take us from acceptable to dominant. That requires a plan.
I agree with that
For there to be this much confusion about the actual defensive scheme we’ve watched all year kinda tells all.
Also
You’re also off about the deep middle zone bit as well. In the tampa 2 the MLB covers the middle zone slightly deeper than you’d see in typical zone coverages.
We we go into full cover 2 zone Ryans drops back into middle zone, that i’ve seen up to about 15 yards behind the line of scrimmage, which is about right on with the “tama 2” scheme.
But again, I never said we run a tampa 2 defense, just that it shares some of the same qualities, which you’ve already pointed to. What you’re doing now is saying that they don’t share this quality or that quality and that’s more important that the qualities they do share.
The fact that they do share any qualities, makes the comparrison between the two teams feasable. If they had nothing at all in common, you could argue that they’re nothing alike. But after admitting they do share some principles on a base level, how can you ride a guy but so much for comparing the two?
I’m not an expert or anything, I just see two defenses that have similarities and point them out and explain how and why they affect the type of player who’d fit the scheme.
Aah, I thought you meant Jimmy
Because he actually ran cover 2/1 gap defenses in college.
Jim Johnson usually ran cover 1 or straight man coverage, sometimes both safeties would play “in the box” and in those cases one or the other would often blitz. He’d throw double gap blitzes, safety blizes, corner blitzes, hell he’d blitz one of his position coaches if they were allowed on the field.
We’re certainly not much like that defense. I was looking for a way to give description to the style of play that would give the best ability to compare needs, the closest I could find was the tampa 2.
I stated all along that we didn’t run a tampa 2, but that it was comparable in many base principles so players that would fit a tampa 2 system are likely to fit ours and vice versa. Sure we don’t drop Ryans back 20 yards in zone coverage, but that’s a large part of why this isn’t a tampa 2 defense.
I think the point MDC was trying to make
was not that we run a defense like Jim Johnson but that 1-gap technique is not exclusive to tampa styled. His D-line was undersized and predicated on speed and holding your gap.
However, Jim Johnson did not man up that often at all. Jim Johnson perfected the 4-3 zone blitz (I’m a bit biased because I like Dawkins and would watch a lot of Eagles games). Why else would the Eagles take a corner like Asante Samuel who thrives in jumping routes and reading plays. The Eagles defense is made up of undersized D-line with speed rushers on the end. However, that does not mean they don’t have an anchor in a guy like Bunkley. However, they want big LBs, so they are strong at the point of attack and can blitz. While the LBs may not be bad in coverage, it did not matter much because the scheme was what made the players effective. The corners play press zone, should be able to read routes and plays, and should be able to tackle (Asante does not fit this part). The safeties have to be great in coverage as well as tackle anyone in front of them. That being said, I think the Cushing pick shows more about the defense than anything. If Cushing was Bush’s choice, then we are not wanting a tampa style defense because Cushing does not fit that mold. Bush inherited all the other players. So we can only look at the players chosen in the draft and the players from free agency. Smith fits what Jim Johnson wants in a LDE. He’s able to come around the corner to rush the passer but also able to hold the point when needed. Pollard is the only one that doesn’t fit, but it may be that he’s just better than anyone we had, so Bush took it. Pollard is an in the box kind of safety who should not be covering a lot of zone (unless he’s coached up a ton since he is still young). A good coach (not saying that Bush is one but work with me here) has to make work with what he has, while installing his system. If Bush was trying to become a 4-3 zone blitzing team like the Eagles, it would make sense why we ran a lot of zone, had LB blitzes, and played 1 gap responsibilities. I’m not saying that we are trying for a 4-3 zone blitz because of players like Shaun Cody and Pollard who don’t fit that kind of scheme. So I would say that we are probably going with a 4-3 under because it fits our players better. But again, a good coach would make the scheme based off the players he has and not based on what he thinks is best.
by theaxeeffect4311 on Feb 25, 2010 5:30 PM CST up reply actions
And one more time, maybe the last
We don’t run a tampa 2 defense, that’s not what i’m saying. I was comparing similarities, nothing more.
By playing cover 2 zone and 1 gap responsibilities you’re forced to rely on speed and quickness. For one, your linebackers have to be fast enough to drop into zone coverage and since you’re playing 1 gap on the line each of your 3 linebackers will have to fill either 1 of 2 gaps on running plays, so the speed and agility is needed in order to close the gap in time.
Jim Johnson didn’t have this problem because that’s not how they did things. The line had 1 gap responsibilities based on the play called, but so did the linebackers. His defense was pretty much a gamble that his blitz, be it a run or pass blitz, would interrupt your play before you could exploit it. They play their linebackers like extra linemen so they need the strength to take on blocks, but are creative with their blitz packages so you never quite know where it’s coming from so it’s hard to adjust blocking assignments.
We don’t play that way. We blitz more than we used it, but it’s a half assed blitz compared to what teams like the Eagles do. The Texans never fully commit to a blitz, more times than not our “blitz” is sending either Cushing or Ryans on occassion and sticking with a compromised zone. Just like the Tampa2 or Kiffin’s old 4-3 under, there’s not alot of shifting or disguising of anything. Which is why announcers always label our defense as “vanilla”, anyone can line up on offense and see what we’re doing defensively.
I disagree that Cushing doesn’t have good speed and quickness as well. Like Williams, Cushing is a freak athlete, one of the rare athletes that provide both size/strength and speed/agility. I’d go as far as to say he’s one of the more athletic strong side linebackers in the league, which is exactly what I described is needed from linebackers playing in a 1 gap front 7.
Whoa, Johnson's defenses were not a gamble
He always had one of the top defenses in the league. You know that zone blitz have variations of cover 2 blitzes right? Blitzing is a gamble, but it’s about attacking the offense and not letting the offense attack you. You have to know what to attack the offense with and plan the next move just like an offense does. It was what made Jim Johnson great was his play calling. Again, I said that we were not a 4-3 zone blitz, but even our defense draws comparisons to it just like you are doing with tampa 2. Yeah, we don’t disguise our schemes or blitzes well and are not effective with a zone blitz because we probably shouldn’t be running it. Also, I never said Cushing was slow. I said he was big which with his size and strength would make him out of place in a tampa style defense. I guess the best way to sum this all up is that we don’t know what kind of defense is going to be ran. So we can’t predict one player not fitting the scheme over another. The only thing we can say is that we are not a 3-4 defense. Vanilla is our defense and we need to change the flavor.
by theaxeeffect4311 on Feb 25, 2010 7:17 PM CST up reply actions
S
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I'll eliminate you like I eliminate gluten from my diet.
by tehGrindCrusher on Feb 26, 2010 9:02 AM CST up reply actions
Blitzing in general
Is a gamble. He’d rush several players at a time, sometimes in the same gap. He’d overload one gap or area in the line with rushers, if he called the wrong blitz the play could go to the opposite side of the field for a huge gain. That’s the gamble of it.
Agressive defenses like that require a MLB to make defensive audibles depending on offensive alignment and shift, Bush seems to be a micro manager in that I can’t remember seeing one defensive audible all season long. So it’s a little like comparing polar opposites as “proof” that you could run a 1 gap defense without doing it the way I suggest… It doesn’t make sense.
And it’s not possible to run a cover 2 and send multiple pass rushers, i’m sorry but it’d leave the zone too thinned out to be viable. Zone blitzes aren’t the same thing as a cover 2 zone, there’s different principles involved, especially how Johnson ran them. When they played any kind of zone, it was typically in a cover 1 shell.
Being big and strong doesn’t put him out of place in any defense. As I said the scheme we run puts a premium on speed and athletecism, that doesn’t mean that if a big strong guy as that speed and athleticism he wouldn’t fit because he’s big and strong. That’s silly.
Maybe we have different definitions of "gamble"
Let me refer you to a website.
http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/Scheme-session-the-zone-blitz.html
This website talks about the zone blitz from Lovie Smith’s tampa 2 defense.
And my point about Cushing was that he was not known for his coverage skills coming out of college. Not saying that he couldn’t do it, but there was concern that he may end being a 2 down LB. I see I forgot to write that in there. I’m sorry.
by theaxeeffect4311 on Feb 26, 2010 2:47 PM CST up reply actions
if not for the limiting width
what level of reply do you think this is?
Dunta's weightspeed was too low
LB on LOS was pretty common
- Rivers McCown, From Mom's Basement | Twitter
by riversmccown on Feb 26, 2010 12:15 AM CST up reply actions
Begging the question
How many games did you watch?
- Rivers McCown, From Mom's Basement | Twitter
by riversmccown on Feb 26, 2010 12:13 AM CST up reply actions
I'll disagree with this
Matt said about 60% of the time, but I think we lined up at 4-3 under closer to 40%. And, frankly, even the 4-3 under we ran was some sucky hybrid with a cover 2.
I think this is part of the reason why Bush frustrates me so much (oh yeah, there’s an insult opening). I didn’t really feel like there was a plan on D. We just kinda threw shit out there. A blitz here. Nickel here. Oh, look, a shiny object! Reminds me of a line from Hunt for Red October: “The Russkies don’t take a dump without a plan.” And, hell, we didn’t play a D with a plan.
So, basically, if we’re arguing about the type of D we run, I think everybody is somewhat wrong. We ran the 4-3 Bushclusterfuck. Period.
A Texans fan. Really. No, I'm not kidding.
http://www.battleredblog.com
by bigfatdrunk on Feb 24, 2010 9:13 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
Two different things
4-3 Under front is easily paired with a Cover-2 shell. And I do think you’re right that, at least at the end of the year, we were in more C-2 and less C-1. But early on, we had Busing or some other bag of suck in the box a ton of the time.
I charted the defensive formations for the first four games for a post that never got written. Looking at them now:
Jets 1Q: C-2 11 times, C-1 8 times, C-0 1 time. We were in an Under front 5 times, an Over once, and either one of the two nickel formations or a base 4-3 the rest.
Jets 2Q: C-2 5 times, C-1 9 times, C-0 1 time, C-3 1 time. Under front 2 times, Over four.
Jets 3Q: C-2 10 times, C-1 10 times. Under 9 times, Over once.
Jets 4Q (I turned off the recording in disgust without accounting for the last ten snaps): C-2 5 times, C-1 7 times. Under 5 times, Over once.
Totals: C-0 2 times, C-1 34 times, C-2 31 times, C-3 once. Under 21 times, Over 7 times.
I need to find my notes from the other games I have, but iirc the Jags and BESF games were even more pronounced in favoring an Under.
I always assumed "You're The Reason God Made Oklahoma" would be some sort of country music diss track. Live and learn, I guess.
I guess the next step forward then goes
do the Texans need a big space eating NT for their defense?
by theaxeeffect4311 on Feb 24, 2010 11:41 PM CST up reply actions
I will definitely agree
that the biggest problem was a lack of any coherent plan.
I always assumed "You're The Reason God Made Oklahoma" would be some sort of country music diss track. Live and learn, I guess.
by MDC on Feb 25, 2010 8:14 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I agree
That we’re not running a defense that’s really ever been used before. It’s taking qualities from several different schemes and trying to mash them together. That’s what it looks like to me.
However, you can break it down on a base level and can see what type of players would most fit the “4-3 bushclusterfuck” D. We run cover 2 predominantly so we need a free safety with good range and cover ability. He’s not going to be matched up on anyone man to man often, but he needs to be able to cover alot of ground quickly and be a solid zone defender. Corners likewise are often times split on whether they’re better in man or zone coverage, we should lean heavilly on picking corners who’re effective in zone coverage.
By playing 1 gap responsibilities we know that speed and quickness is a higher priority than size and strength at LB and all across the D-line.
Now if Bush moves away from the Bushclusterfuck then everything would be up in the air, but if he’s keeping it intact expect those to be the qualities we look for at those positions.
Really surprised Bryan didn't turn that into
“Wikipedia isn’t actually a reliable source.”
- Rivers McCown, From Mom's Basement | Twitter
by riversmccown on Feb 26, 2010 12:12 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Why are your comments about me
Rather than the actual topic of discussion or anything else Texans related?
Not that I don’t appreciate the man-love, i’m just saying…
Guess I must've dreamed the other 10 or so comments in this thread
that I made regarding football and the topics at hand.
- Rivers McCown, From Mom's Basement | Twitter
by riversmccown on Feb 26, 2010 4:54 PM CST up reply actions
Bryan is a master of misdirection.
Rudimentary creatures of flesh and blood, you touch my mind, fumbling in ignorance, incapable of understanding.
by nolander on Feb 26, 2010 5:04 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Describing Tampa's scheme is meaningless in this conversation.
http://www.battleredblog.com/2010/2/24/1324387/good-bye-dunta-robinson#31284769
I always assumed "You're The Reason God Made Oklahoma" would be some sort of country music diss track. Live and learn, I guess.
Did you ever consider that the reason we had smaller DTs is because there weren’t any good NTs available? You keep spouting off that they prefer these smaller tackles, regardless of the fact that finding a good big man is very difficult, and might have more to do with who we ended up playing then anything else.
www.manningface.com
My favorite
was when we played against The Steelers and both offenses couldn’t score, but our vaunted defense stepped up and did the scoring for us.
What does this have to do with anything?
Nothing. Nothing at all.
You will NOT be missed Dunta.
by Jordann on Feb 24, 2010 9:48 AM CST reply actions 4 recs
Also I don’t know if Im reading the Compensatory pick rules correctly, but if we sign less free agents than we lose this year, we will get a decent pick based on the fat contract Dunta is going to sign with another team. Could be as high as a 3rd rounder.
Be judgmental about the actions of the past, be hopeful about the actions of the future. -The Homers Creed
by DaGoaT on Feb 24, 2010 9:48 AM CST reply actions 2 recs
http://www.theredzone.org/FreeAgency/NFLFreeAgencyTerms.aspx
Be judgmental about the actions of the past, be hopeful about the actions of the future. -The Homers Creed
Thanks Goat
You and I both are reading it the same way.
If the # of UFAs signed < UFAs lost then we get compensatory draft picks in rounds 3-7 based on their contract.
Dunta could turn into a 3rd round draft pick!!!!!
That's awesome
…and we save payroll by not paying his inflated demands for his under-performance. That is good business. That is how teams are built to win for the long-term. Rick Smith is working on putting his puzzle together piece by piece.
I suppose if all of the stars, moons and planets align it could be possible, but what are the chances of that?
Dang it!
I said “we.” First time slip-up….
I suppose if all of the stars, moons and planets align it could be possible, but what are the chances of that?
carlos rogers is my top choice
i know all the negatives, but…
how about these guys at CB next year
quin, reeves, mccain, bennett, carlos rogers, perrish cox.
i am one of the few who think fred bennett will be an above average nickel or dime back and show up more like his rookie year
maybe im on crack
dunta is going to be a cowboy
"Its like a silk bag filled with puppy ears"
I'd rather not sign a CB
and get a 3rd round draft pick than take Carlos “I sat on the bench in Washington” Rogers.
i mean would you be motivated in washington.
the guy has sick talent and is still young. he is better than dunta could ever hope to be
at least we wont see dive, dive, pass interference, dive every drive
"Its like a silk bag filled with puppy ears"
Of course he's better than Dunta
That’s easy.
I never thought he had sick talent. He just seems like an average CB (As evidenced by his 6 career INTs and 1 PD per game career average).
That's not say that I wouldn't take him at the right price
I just don’t know how I would feel with him on #1s
I am about 50-50 with you
coming out of college the guy was a sick prospect. won the thorpe award and a finalist for bednarik. i think he is bigger than dunta and i bet he still has great speed.
but i think your right.
dunta, rodgers, and bodden probably ALL get overpaid!!!!
"Its like a silk bag filled with puppy ears"
i'll say we trade down
Get another 2nd round pick and use it on WHOever of the CBs available..
Perrish Cox, Donovan Warren, Brnadon Ghee, Kyle Wilson, Domonique Franks, Kareem Jackson, Jerome Murphy (Love this guy!) and even Nate Allen, FS, could be a CB..
There’s loooads of depth on the CB position.
And what about molden? I looked at the old nfldraftscout report on him from the draft.. and they were projecting him at FS, could he?
Die hard Texan fan from the heart of Denmark!
Why would you need to trade down?
You can probably get Cox at 2/20.
There’s no need to panic about getting a CB.
Because then we could get another CB or a Safety or everything we want with that extra 2nd rounder.. and imo an extra 2nd rounder is worth more than the 20th spot in the first round. And i don’t know if anything with decent value would fall to us at #20..
Die hard Texan fan from the heart of Denmark!
That's the thing
We don’t know who’s going to be sitting at pick 20.
I don’t disagree with the trade down philosophy, but I also want to see who falls to 20. Especially if its Jermaine Gresham since we’re really thin at the TE position.
Gresham would be good to have when we're available
as trade bait, that is. Both the Patriots and Ravens are interested in him.
by theaxeeffect4311 on Feb 24, 2010 10:52 AM CST up reply actions
i love me some gresham
but the fact he is not a great blocker at all might lead to him slipping down to these two teams anyway.
lets all pray that he goes bananas in the 40, like a 4.5 flat. its possible
"Its like a silk bag filled with puppy ears"
we should take gresham
and trade OD to BAL for their 2nd and 5th
"Its like a silk bag filled with puppy ears"
i hope the Sergio Kindle hype continues and teams are willing to trade for him before New England gets the chance @ 22.
And maybe the tackles, if one of the top6 falls to us, someone will bite! Don’t forget how we used a 1st rounder on a tackle projected in the 3rd.. a run on tackles would be great.
Die hard Texan fan from the heart of Denmark!
The Pats dont trade up, only down.
Be judgmental about the actions of the past, be hopeful about the actions of the future. -The Homers Creed
my point exactly. Team would trade up to get Kindle before New England gets him at #22.
Die hard Texan fan from the heart of Denmark!
by zala on Feb 24, 2010 11:06 AM CST up reply actions 2 recs
Ya!
Trade up to get Amazon Kindle….that dude is SICK!
"An open mind is like a fortress with it's gates unbarred and unguarded."
The ROSENFAIL : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CAKAKE-uq-8&feature=related
by TexansForever on Feb 24, 2010 11:26 AM CST up reply actions
what about kimbo slice at CB
or NT, or maybe KICKER!!!!
"Its like a silk bag filled with puppy ears"
Only if
there’s no OL named Seth Petruzelli
by HoustonTransplant on Feb 24, 2010 11:37 AM CST up reply actions 2 recs
ive been hearing chatter
on some boards and from some texts ive gotten…
that demeco is close to getting a big deal done.
i hope this is true….
"Its like a silk bag filled with puppy ears"
Are you kidding me?
We get news of Dunta leaving and DeMeco (reportedly) staying? ON THE SAME DAY?
I need to go play the lottery or something…
what is the source? I havent seen Pancakes bring it up yet.
Be judgmental about the actions of the past, be hopeful about the actions of the future. -The Homers Creed
no source
ive had three people text me about it so maybe someone mentioned it on one of the boards.
i have no real info to back up that it is actually happening, but in the interest of not playing in traffic today, im deciding to believe it.
i cant seem to find it on the internet, but these guys usually are pretty correct about things
"Its like a silk bag filled with puppy ears"
this is what i was texted
Sirius radio reported this morning that the team and Demeco are negotiating an extension. I havent seen this anywhere else yet though.
I cant think that anyone would have a problem with paying him after the seasons he has had. He definatly deserves it and it will be nice to have him locked in long term.
"Its like a silk bag filled with puppy ears"
a bit off-topic
What do you guys think about Casey Wiegmann, a 2008 pro bowl center who excels in the ZBS.
Got released by Denver yesterday. Go for him?!?!?
Die hard Texan fan from the heart of Denmark!
Chris Myers came from Denver.
Be judgmental about the actions of the past, be hopeful about the actions of the future. -The Homers Creed
I would think
No. Smithiak is trending toward getting young and not 14 year vets who are smaller than Myers.
by HoustonTransplant on Feb 24, 2010 11:32 AM CST up reply actions
My favorite Dunta moment
would have been when he knocked the pass down against the tits that sealed our huge come from behind win a couple years back.
But he didn’t knock it down, and their kicker kicked his 17 field goal against us to win it.
Dunta's weightspeed was too low
by texanphil on Feb 24, 2010 11:39 AM CST reply actions 2 recs
Kris brown
Dissapproves of this post
by AllenOU on Feb 24, 2010 11:52 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
To his credit...
It was a perfect throw. Not much he could have done there.
I think my favorite moment was the Texans-Titans MNF game this season when that horrible VY pass didn’t bounce off his hands, and he got the game-sealing pick.
Oh, wait. He missed an easy interception there…
but after that comeback
that was a play that needed to be made.
Big time corners make big time plays… well, you know the rest.
Dunta's weightspeed was too low
Dunta Robinson
SMART MOVE TEXANS!!!! Dunta was the most OVER-RATED player on the team. He’s so worried about making the Sportscenter highlight reel with his hard hits that he forgets to wrap up and tackle! He also had a pass interference call in 4 straight games! Not to mention he got burned by a rookie (Kenny Britt) in the Monday Night game against the Titans. Good riddance!!! Let Dallas have him… they have a reputation for signing fame-seekers such as Robinson.
Don't let the door hit you on the way out Cunta.
Favorite moment – he had a big pick six against the bills a few years back if I’m not mistaken.
Peppers – I hope the Texans don’t sign him, we could have had him for his prime but chose mittens instead. He isn’t the same player he was a few years ago. Just let Barwin work his way into a more frequent role on our exhisting D-Line. I say DT or CB in first round this year, and when would we know if the Texans are considering Quinn at free safety. Because corner becomes the primary concern if they are planning to move quinn. Why not try Fred Bennburnt at FS he couldn’t do any worse than he did at corner.
You are banned from Music City Miracles.
Happy Now Tits?
You are banned from Blogging The Boys.
Vince Young - Suicide Doors
Quin stays at corner
I think Wilson comes back or they draft a FS.
They might sign another FA like maybe even Darren sharper for a couple of years. Yeah he’s older but I think he has a couple very good years left and he terrorized peyton manning…… Just sayin
by AllenOU on Feb 24, 2010 3:37 PM CST via mobile up reply actions 2 recs
Too early for the load of "I told you so's" I get to dole out???
Boy, did I ever tell you so, though.
Bacon tastes good... Pork chops taste good.
by beefy on Feb 24, 2010 2:43 PM CST reply actions 2 recs
good riddens.
Rockets>>>>>>Jazz
Texans>>>>>>>Titans
Super Mario>>>>>>>Vince Young
by Rockets 4 Life on Feb 24, 2010 3:01 PM CST reply actions 2 recs
Yep
that freakin looser
If the Treasury Secretary doesn't have to pay taxes, then why do I?
by Shake on Feb 24, 2010 3:39 PM CST up reply actions 4 recs
Bad move by the Texans
I hate Dunta. While my hate for him is not as strong as other people’s hate for him, he is not on my good side.
With that said, I think this is a horrible move by the Texans. Its Bob McNair being cheap. Its Rick Smith being bitter. Dunta Robinson is the best CB we can get this offseason and now with Dunta gone it immediately moves CB to the top of our needs. Since there is no cap, franchising Dunta would not harm our ability to sign other players unless McNair wants to be cheap which he is obviously doing.
When we are complaining about our CBs next season, this is the move we all need to look at whether we hate Dunta or not.
To all Houston sports fans, Houston is the 4th biggest city in America, there will be traffic on the way to your respective sports game. Come Early, Be Loud, Stay Late.
There's a difference between being cheap and being prudent
Even if you don’t count the cap and blah blah blah, if you have a crappy contract on your books, even Papa McNair will have a hard time doling out money for those who deserve it, like DeMeco.
A Texans fan. Really. No, I'm not kidding.
http://www.battleredblog.com
I'll play CB
I mean I can get PI penalties and get burned by a rookie WR on a division rival every week
I am dunta Robinson
by AllenOU on Feb 24, 2010 4:23 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
Can we change "banned" to "dunted"?
It’s actually a real word which means, “beaten; hence, blunted”.
by theaxeeffect4311 on Feb 24, 2010 4:35 PM CST up reply actions
And now we got to the point where Texans fans' hatred of Dunta clouds their judgement on this...
Have you not noticed the major media outlets all saying that Dunta will be the best FA CB?? Do you not realize that a CB we draft in the 1st round will not be as good as Dunta was? Do you really want Glover Quin and Jaques Reeves as our starting CBs?? Did you not notice Dunta get better and better throughout the season??
This isnt aimed just at Jordann, its aimed at all people who think this was a good move based solely on their hatred for Dunta.
To all Houston sports fans, Houston is the 4th biggest city in America, there will be traffic on the way to your respective sports game. Come Early, Be Loud, Stay Late.
by TexasHoosier on Feb 24, 2010 4:56 PM CST up reply actions
He's not the best FA CB
Leigh Bodden is. The media is 100% wrong on calling him the best FA CB.
Do I want Quin and Reeves starting? No. I’d rather trade for Scrabble or draft Ghee/Wilson/Cox and maybe Arenas.
Will they be as good as Dunta was? No. They’ll be better. They can at least turn and run with corners.
Out of the 2004 NFL draft, 7 of the top 10 picks have been Pro Bowlers. Dunta is one of the three who haven’t. Look at Dunta’s stats…his rookie year was his best year. Ever since? Nothing special. He never improved. The injury hurt him, and he doesnt’ seem to want to get his butt into training camp to work.
by TexansDC on Feb 24, 2010 5:00 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
What TexansDC said plus
the media is saying that the best FA QB this off-season is Daunte Culpepper. Either the media doesn’t do their homework or it’s a weak crop of FAs. If Robinson is the top CB available (which he’s not, Bodden is better) then I would say that’s a weak crop. Also, I have not heard once the media talk about his injury, skipping training camps, or the “Pay Me Rick” incident. All question marks just like Peppers’ work ethic and how he takes plays off.
by theaxeeffect4311 on Feb 24, 2010 5:07 PM CST up reply actions
The media also just said
LT has publicly stated his first choice would be to play in Houston. Just on sportscenter 4 minutes ago
shoot. Me. Now.
by AllenOU on Feb 24, 2010 5:10 PM CST via mobile up reply actions 2 recs
I was gonna post something about that too
Except that I like it. When have we ever had big name players want to play here? I think its a great sign that LT wants to come here and i think we should give him a look.
As for Dunta, yes it is a weak FA class, but Dunta is still one of the better CBs we can have for next season. I wont change my mind on that and we will see when the season starts. The Dunta issues (injury, skipping training camp, “Pay me Rick”) are all related and all past him. If he gets a good contract he will play hard and go to training camp like he did every year before last year. One time is not a trend and its not a reason to hate a player.
To all Houston sports fans, Houston is the 4th biggest city in America, there will be traffic on the way to your respective sports game. Come Early, Be Loud, Stay Late.
by TexasHoosier on Feb 24, 2010 5:14 PM CST up reply actions
I'll agree with you on LT wanting to play here
He’s also a local (well, Texas) product, so there’s that.
But, unless the money is seriously right and not guaranteed, I’d prefer to look elsewhere.
A Texans fan. Really. No, I'm not kidding.
http://www.battleredblog.com
by bigfatdrunk on Feb 24, 2010 5:15 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
I hear that LT could . . .
still punch it in from the
1 yard line
5 yard line
AND . . ..
complete a touchdown pass ;-)
and probably a hell of alot better than Ahman Green ever was.
by BattleRedFan on Feb 24, 2010 6:06 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
heh
LT is 8 for 12 with 7 TDs in his career.
http://www.nfl.com/players/ladainiantomlinson/careerstats?id=TOM683150
A Texans fan. Really. No, I'm not kidding.
http://www.battleredblog.com
by bigfatdrunk on Feb 24, 2010 6:41 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
What would be a decent contract for LT
2 years for 8 mill with incentives on 4 mil and 4 mil guaranteed???
by AllenOU on Feb 24, 2010 7:22 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
Even that would be too much for me
I mean, I still think Slaton is in the mix, and I liked the way Pterodactyl Man looked last year. If it’s not Slaton, he’s our future. And if we draft a RB, where does that put LT?
A Texans fan. Really. No, I'm not kidding.
http://www.battleredblog.com
If you read my original post you would see that I hate Dunta
so the big name is not affecting me. What is affecting me is the fact that Dunta got better throughout the season, the fact that there is no one we can bring in that would be better next season, and that he is a needed leader for our secondary.
To all Houston sports fans, Houston is the 4th biggest city in America, there will be traffic on the way to your respective sports game. Come Early, Be Loud, Stay Late.
by TexasHoosier on Feb 25, 2010 1:04 AM CST up reply actions
you sure?
because that was a response to my post mostly about Dunta. Mittens is not the kind of blogger to only read the first part of a post and I didnt say anything about actually bringing in LT.
To all Houston sports fans, Houston is the 4th biggest city in America, there will be traffic on the way to your respective sports game. Come Early, Be Loud, Stay Late.
by TexasHoosier on Feb 25, 2010 1:11 AM CST up reply actions
Of course it is
(X) Texas boy
(X) Chance at playing time
(X) Super Bowl contender
(X) Good locker room
(X) Really able to contribute to a team’s success [playing and coaching]
Houston definitely is an attractive location if you’re a free agent.
NEWSFLASH
Major Media ARE FUCKING MORONS
www.manningface.com
by nolander on Feb 24, 2010 5:15 PM CST up reply actions 7 recs
And Nolie wins the Internet today!
Thanks for playing.
A Texans fan. Really. No, I'm not kidding.
http://www.battleredblog.com
3.....2......1.... Take off.
And now we got to the point where Texans fans’ hatred of Dunta clouds their judgement on this…
Nice title. But this started when he skipped training camp.
Have you not noticed the major media outlets all saying that Dunta will be the best FA CB??
I have noticed that major media outlets are all saying that Dunta will be the best(see: lies) FA CB available. Those are the same media outlets that hail VY as the saviour and Reggie Bush as the second coming of Barry Sanders. Meaning, I don’t take those major media outlets seriously because I don’t buy the hype. They haven’t been watching the same player that i’ve been watching. Dunta is nothing but a shell of his former self. My hatred for Dunta started with his attitude and ended with his horrible performance for the past two seasons. So my hate IS justified.
Do you not realize that a CB we draft in the 1st round will not be as good as Dunta was?
How do you know that we’re going to draft a CB in the first round? Because the “major” media outlets like espn told you so? Please. I’ll listen to a drunk hobo begging for change down bellaire and 59 before I listen to Mel “My hair is fabulous” Kiper.
And if we do draft a CB in the first round, how do you know that he won’t be better than Dunta? Dunta wasn’t even that good to begin with. And even Dunta wasn’t as good as Dunta WAS.
Pure speculation? I thought so.
Do you really want Glover Quin and Jaques Reeves as our starting CBs??
I wouldn’t mind having GQ as our CB1 although I still think that he’s built to be a safety. He did good last season for a rookie that doesn’t really have the speed to cover a receiver one on one. And as for Jacques Reeves, yes I would rather have him starting over CUNTA. Eventhough his coverage skills aren’t as good as the top 5 CB’s in the league(STILL BETTER THAN CUNTA), at least I know that he won’t get burnt like Petey Faggins.
Did you not notice Dunta get better and better throughout the season??
O RLY?! Evidene? None? Oh okayy.
This isnt aimed just at Jordann, its aimed at all people who think this was a good move based solely on their hatred for Dunta.
This one is aimed at you TexasHoosier. Don’t let the Old Dunta cloud your judgement on this. And don’t rely heavily on your major media outlets.
He actually did improve as the season wore on...the same as in 2008
However, both seasons he missed OTAs, training camps, and the preseason. He used the 1st half of the season to get into shape…then was in shape.
However, he seems to rely on his athleticism rather than improving technique. The problem? His injury altered his athletic ability. He needs to work on technique, but doesn’t want to put in the effort.
I know that.
But I noticed that as the season progressed, he was targeted less. And that made him look better because he was getting burnt less.
In Dunta’s condition, there was really no way else to go but up.
For succinctness, and as additional proof of why MM is full of fucking morons, must I remind you that TODD MCSHAY and MEL KIPER are considered major draft experts?
www.manningface.com
by nolander on Feb 24, 2010 5:50 PM CST up reply actions 3 recs
CBs suck
I don’t think you realize how bad 90% of the CBs in the league are. You lack at Dunta as average to above average, but in reality he’s a top 10 CB, because CBs are that bad. They ALL get victimized.
There are two CBs in the entire league that are superstars and don’t get worked over on the field.. that’s it.. 2.. The other 8 or 9 guys trade giving up plays for making plays..
So when you assume a new CB drafted has a good chance to be better than Dunta, you’re not dealing with the odds very well.
"but in reality he’s a top 10 CB, because CBs are that bad"
That might be the dumbest thing ever written on BRB.
I always assumed "You're The Reason God Made Oklahoma" would be some sort of country music diss track. Live and learn, I guess.
by MDC on Feb 25, 2010 6:31 AM CST up reply actions 3 recs
get lost looser?
c’mon, this isn’t even in the top 10
Dunta's weightspeed was too low
Well the "looser" thing
was just run of the mill retard. This is some kind of assertion about football as if this guy knows anything about anything, yet it’s so laughably false that anyone with an ounce of sense knows better.
I always assumed "You're The Reason God Made Oklahoma" would be some sort of country music diss track. Live and learn, I guess.
Go see what Tampa fans said
“yes i would love to see Dunta Robinson in a Bucs uni! We need help in our secondary and he doesn’t cost us anything other than money (no picks no RB’s) Having Talib and Robinson on islands with T.Jax playing the out field, hell Sabby might look decent out there and if we are able to grab Berry….Hell i can play on the line and get a sack or 2 because the QB has no were the throw the ball.”
It’s not on BRB, but it had me going wow…we really coulda traded him for something decent if other teams have ignored us that much.
I could understand this, except for the fact that you think the media knows shit about talent.
Be judgmental about the actions of the past, be hopeful about the actions of the future. -The Homers Creed
by DaGoaT on Feb 24, 2010 5:44 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
C’mon man! Im a regular here, do you really think I believe everything the media says?? The fact that they say that does mean something though. They arent always wrong and while I dont think Dunta is the best FA CB, I do think he is top 5. I also dont think we can get anyone this offseason that will be better than Dunta.
To all Houston sports fans, Houston is the 4th biggest city in America, there will be traffic on the way to your respective sports game. Come Early, Be Loud, Stay Late.
by TexasHoosier on Feb 25, 2010 1:18 AM CST up reply actions
The free agent class isn't deep though
So him being top 5 of a weak class is pretty bad.
Heck, even the Ram fans don’t seem want him – that’s saying something.
True
I’m an outsider, and I can tell you right now Dunta Robinson is hands down the 2nd best FA behind Peppers. It’s surprising to read he’s going to be a UFA, because everyone knows he’s good. It’s more suprising to read how cavalier people on this board are about him going because frankly, y’all aint that good to be casting out players and blaming that it’s based on talent.
Maybe the fact that he’s saying he’s gone is causing all the bad blood and double talk, but yeah.. as an outsider, you’re fools if you expect to get better with Dunta leaving. It can happen, but it isn’t likely.
re: expect to get better w/ Dunta leaving
We already have better CBs on the roster than Dunta.
I just don’t understand how everyone really believes Dunta was our CB1 (in talent or game play).
He started in 2009 for 2 main reasons:
- Frenchy got hurt just before the season. (which Dunta was able to avoid by being at home)
- the Travis-Johnson-butterfly-effect
If the Treasury Secretary doesn't have to pay taxes, then why do I?
Look, if you want him on your team, take him
PLEASE! And the bad blood is not about him talking about leaving, it’s from stupid incidents like holding out, skipping training camp, doing the “Pay Me RIck” thing, showing up to start the season out of shape, and finally playing like ass after all that to show that he wasn’t worth the huge contract that he wanted. And if you can’t name 10 corners better than Dunta, then you aren’t watching closely.
by theaxeeffect4311 on Feb 25, 2010 9:11 AM CST up reply actions
Stats from the last 2 years (and he looked even worse when using eyeballs)
Defensive
Tackles Interceptions
Year Team G Comb Total Ast Sck SFTY PDef Int TDs Yds Avg Lng
2009 Houston Texans 16 64 54 10 0.0 - 9 - - - 0.0 —
2008 Houston Texans 11 38 35 3 0.0 — 6 2 0 0 0.0 0
Top 5 CB. Best FA available. $23 MM my ass. You can have him buddy!
Confucius says "man who stands on toilet, high on pot".
Clarify "Outsider"
Are you someone that has actually watched football or are you going off Madden 2005’s player ratings?
- Rivers McCown, From Mom's Basement | Twitter
by riversmccown on Feb 26, 2010 12:29 AM CST up reply actions
I'll eliminate you like I eliminate gluten from my diet.
by tehGrindCrusher on Feb 26, 2010 9:04 AM CST up reply actions 5 recs
Yeah he is a top 5 FA CB
If you cant admit that than your hate for Dunta is definitely affecting your judgement.
To all Houston sports fans, Houston is the 4th biggest city in America, there will be traffic on the way to your respective sports game. Come Early, Be Loud, Stay Late.
by TexasHoosier on Feb 25, 2010 2:46 PM CST up reply actions
Did not see the FA
I apologize.
I thought you meant top 5 NFL CB.
But him being a top 5 FA CB doesn’t mean much when the crop of FA CB is weak.
I know that
but thats partly my whole point. We are creating another big hole at CB when there arent many good people to fill that hole. Unless we get really lucky in FA and sign Leigh Bodden or make a great draft pick in the 1st round our CBs will be worse next season than this season. If we take a CB in the 1st than that still leaves holes at NT, OG, OC, RB, FS.
My reasoning for wanting to franchise Dunta even though I hate him is that I feel he is the best CB we can obtain for next season (notice how I never said he is actually good). Keeping Dunta saves us from needing a top CB which allows us to target other positions in FA and the draft which will in turn make our team better.
To all Houston sports fans, Houston is the 4th biggest city in America, there will be traffic on the way to your respective sports game. Come Early, Be Loud, Stay Late.
by TexasHoosier on Feb 25, 2010 3:00 PM CST up reply actions
As if you knew what's going to happen in the future.
Might I remind you that if Frenchy didn’t get injured, Dunta wouldn’t have been starting. He’s capable of covering a WR1 and he’s shown that before. As long as he’s not being used in zone, he’ll be able to hold his own. GQ is also a capable starter.
If we draft a CB or a S, that’s already an upgrade over Dunta. He’s not the same anymore. If this was pre-injury Dunta that we’re talking about then I would say it’s a bad move. But the post injury Dunta, no thanks. There’s a good crop of CB’s in this draft that are capable of starting.
To pay a guy like Dunta $12 mil is ridiculous. Especially when we need that money to resign OD, Meco and Pollard.
I understand that
But I dont think its good that one of our starting CBs cant play zone, that will hamper our defensive playcalling a bit.
Is $12 mil really that ridiculous when there is no salary cap?? Signing Dunta doesnt take away from what we can give OD, Meco and Pollard. While its not my money, if McNair wants to win he should spend this season when he can (and thats not me saying McNair doesnt spend because I do know we were top 5 in salary last season as a team).
To all Houston sports fans, Houston is the 4th biggest city in America, there will be traffic on the way to your respective sports game. Come Early, Be Loud, Stay Late.
by TexasHoosier on Feb 25, 2010 4:08 PM CST up reply actions
While 2010 is uncapped
There’s no guarantee what 2011 may be. What if the cap comes back and our team salary is $175 million (exaggeration, we’re not Snyder or Jerrah)?
The reports are that the Texans haven’t talked to Dunta in a while. My guess is that they must have been planning for where they fill in the hole…I say we see what this plan is.
by TexansDC on Feb 25, 2010 4:17 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
A $12 mil franchise tag will only affect us in 2010
If Dunta sucks than we would be able to let him go and be unaffected when the cap comes back
To all Houston sports fans, Houston is the 4th biggest city in America, there will be traffic on the way to your respective sports game. Come Early, Be Loud, Stay Late.
by TexasHoosier on Feb 25, 2010 4:45 PM CST up reply actions
That is McNair's $12 million.
Not ours. And he doesn’t want to spend it on a burnt toast.
I salute you Mr. McNair.
by Jordann on Feb 25, 2010 6:06 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
Obviously you're sticking with your opinion.
And im sticking with mine.
I just don’t see how it benefits us to keep a mediocre CB and pay him $12 million dollars when we can appropriate that money for something else.
Yes, exactly
It’s all a matter of balance….Dunta would upset that applecart.
I suppose if all of the stars, moons and planets align it could be possible, but what are the chances of that?
but without a salary cap that balance is already shifted
If McNair wanted to spend extra money this season he could. Franchising Dunta would be a one year thing that would not count against out salary cap. Its not my money though so while I think McNair should have spent I understand why he didnt.
To all Houston sports fans, Houston is the 4th biggest city in America, there will be traffic on the way to your respective sports game. Come Early, Be Loud, Stay Late.
by TexasHoosier on Feb 26, 2010 2:29 PM CST up reply actions
That ship has sailed....
I suppose if all of the stars, moons and planets align it could be possible, but what are the chances of that?
If you owned the Texans
and have to spend $12,000,000.00 of your money to keep a mediocre cornerback for ONE year.
Would you?
And the answer is no.
Goodbye, Dunta Robinson!
Hello, rookie CB?
I suppose if all of the stars, moons and planets align it could be possible, but what are the chances of that?
Just want to clarify something here
Why would we have to draft a CB in the first round because Dunta is leaving? Can you only find a talented CB in the first round? Even if we kept Dunta, we would have to draft a player to replace him eventually. We have not even hit free agency yet, so who knows how the team will draft.
And your comment about if we took a CB in the first round that it would leave holes at NT, OG, OC, RB, and FS…what’s the point in saying that? What’s the likeliness that we are going to spend our first round pick on an OC or RB? Yes, those are the team’s needs, but the draft is not summed up in one draft pick.
by theaxeeffect4311 on Feb 25, 2010 4:29 PM CST up reply actions
My point was that I think Dunta is the best available option for us as a CB next season
Im not saying we will draft a CB in the 1st but thats the most likely place to find someone better. I dont think we could find someone better than Dunta (when only looking at next season) in the 1st round.
My point with listing the places we need help was to show that if we draft a CB in the first now that Dunta is gone than it pushes all those other holes further back. Hypothetically, instead of taking a NT in the 1st, a FS in the 2nd, and a OG in the 3rd; we would be taking a CB in the 1st, a NT in the 2nd, and a FS in the 3rd. That combined with the fact that I dont think we can get a CB better than Dunta for next season is why I think this was a bad move
To all Houston sports fans, Houston is the 4th biggest city in America, there will be traffic on the way to your respective sports game. Come Early, Be Loud, Stay Late.
by TexasHoosier on Feb 25, 2010 4:50 PM CST up reply actions
Potential
I believe that the CB we draft (because we will draft a corner) has the potential to become better than Dunta. We can’t just think about next season, we have to think about the future. Even if we grab Leigh Bodden, I think we’ll still grab a corner in the second because of the potential of some of these guys. I still don’t see why it has to be a corner in the first. Ladarius Webb (3rd round pick) of the Ravens was considerably better than Dunta in coverage and tackling while putting up decent numbers with only four starts (35 tackles, 1 sack, and 6 PDs). Compare that to Dunta who had 64 tackles, 1 FF, and 9 PDs in 16 starts, I think we would survive with a rookie.
If McNair wants to make long term contracts with some of our other players, then we need to free up some cash somewhere. Not to mention that if we want to be active in free agency, being bogged down by 12 mil to one player would not make it easier. Is it more important to lock up a guy like DeMeco Ryans or have Dunta on the team?
Have some confidence that there is talent outside of the first round. Here are some of the better corners in the league not drafted in the first round:
Leigh Bodden (undrafted)
Asante Samuel (4th round)
Jabari Greer (undrafted)
Brandon Flowers (2nd round)
Terell Thomas (2nd round)
Sheldon Brown (2nd round)
Al Harris (6th round)
by theaxeeffect4311 on Feb 25, 2010 5:43 PM CST up reply actions 5 recs
Thanks for listing those axe,
It further solidifies my point that you don’t need to waste your 1st rd draft pick on a CB when you can just draft a CB a couple of rounds later and still get the same or even more production from that draft pick.
I just like the fact that
we all want Bodden who went undrafted over Dunta who went 10th overall. Ha
by theaxeeffect4311 on Feb 25, 2010 7:03 PM CST up reply actions
Yes, now that Dunta is leaving
The team will turn to the draft and pick up a CB. I still think the O-line is the number one need and where the quality is in the 1st round, but I can see 2nd or 3rd for a CB.
I suppose if all of the stars, moons and planets align it could be possible, but what are the chances of that?
Why would we have to use our 1st rd pick on a CB?
I already told you that there’s plenty of 2nd rd talent that have the ability to start. Why do you keep ignoring this fact?
you just dont get it do you
We only have to invest in Dunta for next season. I believe he will be better next season than any rookie we draft. I was talking about drafting a CB in the 1st because thats where we could get the best player. A player drafted in the 1st should be better than a player drafted in the 2nd even though the 2nd round player could still start. I never said we “have to” or should or will draft a CB in the 1st.
Also, your point about getting a CB in later rounds can work for any position.
Just a few examples:
LB – DeMeco 2nd Round
QB – Tom Brady 6th Round
DE – Jared Allen 4th Round
RB – Michael Turner 5th Round
OLB – Lance Briggs 3rd Round
DE – Robert Mathis 5th Round
OT – Nick Kaczur 3rd Round
SS – Kerry Rhodes 4th Round
To all Houston sports fans, Houston is the 4th biggest city in America, there will be traffic on the way to your respective sports game. Come Early, Be Loud, Stay Late.
by TexasHoosier on Feb 25, 2010 7:34 PM CST up reply actions
Agreed
We trade down in the draft. Glad we solved that problem.
by theaxeeffect4311 on Feb 25, 2010 7:36 PM CST up reply actions
O RLY?!
We only have to invest in Dunta for next season.
If we do that, then half of BRB would die from heart attacks.
I don’t ever wanna see Dunta tackle Casper again.
I believe he will be better next season than any rookie we draft
That’s your belief. More power to you. But I don’t.
I was talking about drafting a CB in the 1st because thats where we could get the best player.
Not entirely true. axeeffect already listed some players that’s been successful in the NFL and they weren’t drafted in the first round. Why do you keep ignoring this?
How many times do I need to tell you that there’s plenty of talented CB’s in this years draft that can start for us.
A player drafted in the 1st should be better than a player drafted in the 2nd even though the 2nd round player could still start.
Should be. But most of the time they are not. Have you seen the success rate of players that are drafted in the first round of the draft? You’d be surprised. Being drafted in the first round doesn’t mean anything.
I never said we "have to" or should or will draft a CB in the 1st.
But you said that’s the only place we can find somebody that can replace the “talented” Dunta Robinson.
You confuse me.
Also, your point about getting a CB in later rounds can work for any position.
Just a few examples:
LB – DeMeco 2nd Round
QB – Tom Brady 6th Round
DE – Jared Allen 4th Round
RB – Michael Turner 5th Round
OLB – Lance Briggs 3rd Round
DE – Robert Mathis 5th Round
OT – Nick Kaczur 3rd Round
SS – Kerry Rhodes 4th Round
Relevance?
I do understand the option of getting a CB later in the draft
What you dont understand is that Ive never said we have to draft a CB in the 1st. Im not going to try to explain it either because I already have and you are too stubborn to see it.
The relevance about the draft picks is that you said we can find CBs later in the draft so I showed that you can find any position later in the draft which opens up draft options. Because we can get other players later, we also could draft a CB in the 1st.
To all Houston sports fans, Houston is the 4th biggest city in America, there will be traffic on the way to your respective sports game. Come Early, Be Loud, Stay Late.
by TexasHoosier on Feb 26, 2010 2:34 PM CST up reply actions
But you keep saying that the only place
we can find a replacement for Dunta is the first round of the draft! That’s why I keep pressing the fact that we can draft CB’s in later round.
/head essplodeessssss
If CB is a big hole, Dunta was the shovel.
- Rivers McCown, From Mom's Basement | Twitter
by riversmccown on Feb 26, 2010 12:31 AM CST up reply actions 5 recs
LT foster slaton
And maybe even Johnson over moats
Johnson could be the wild card
the kid was pretty good at Oregon
what the fuck is up with that school. I mean come on…
by AllenOU on Feb 24, 2010 7:24 PM CST via mobile reply actions
Forget the name
L.T. is done. Chester Taylor would be a much better signing for the Texans. He can be a 3rd down back. He’s strong, gets the tough yards, knows blocking schemes very well and is a very good pass blocker and he’s got a great work ethic and personality.
L.T. is none of that, and if he doesn’t bring the ability he had in years 1-7, then he’s worthless, and that ability hasn’t been around in the past 2 years, no reason to believe it’s coming back in year 10.
Might need a thirdeye
“Chester Taylor would be a much better signing for the Texans. He can be a 3rd down back. He’s strong, gets the tough yards, knows blocking schemes very well and is a very good pass blocker and he’s got a great work ethic and personality.”
“L.T. is none of that” – Do you know anything about football??? Do you know anything about LT? Kiper, is that you?
Confucius says "man who stands on toilet, high on pot".
by Bobobigbro on Feb 25, 2010 9:49 AM CST up reply actions 2 recs
oh, I think he has
a third eye.
Rec’d, nonetheless.
Dunta's weightspeed was too low
I think he needs some new shoes
with “PLEASE PAY ME RICK” on them.
by distant_texans_fan on Feb 24, 2010 8:35 PM CST reply actions
Comicle reaction?
Justice blames the Texans for bungling the deal. It reeks of nonsense. He defends Dunta to the end. He’s got his 2010 scapegoat picked out.
Lance…well, the man makes the most sense. I’ll link to Lance. http://blogs.chron.com/fantasyfootball/2010/02/thanks_for_your_time_with_the.html
Care what Dunta has to say?
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/fb/texansfront/6882589.html
Bannable offense
Cmon, man! :-)
LDJA12 takes every opportunity to take a pot shot at Smith. Smith must’ve banged his wife or something, I dunno. For the fifth time today I’ll say: check your source.
That said, I agree with LanceZ’s take.
A Texans fan. Really. No, I'm not kidding.
http://www.battleredblog.com
I never linked to Justice. Just pointed out that he was an idiot
Although I felt dirty after reading it.
In the great words of a classic movie...
“Goodbye, farewell, aufwiedesen, good night!”
I think if Doont-uh hadn’t made me feel like a dirty whore.
All joking aside
He was worthy of the draft pick (which is no small feat, it was Casserly after all) and until the debacle this time last year, he was a solid leader of your Houston Texans.
I appreciate all Dunta did for the Houston Texans from the day he was drafted until his little bitchy episode all last year.
I don’t fault him for sucking last year. I don’t fault him for his career stats, he was one of the best to wear the uniform.
I just wish he hadn’t sullied the whole thing by acting like a punk, and giving up on the team last offseason. He missed camp when he needed it the most, and he admittedly didn’t try in the Jets game.
Those actions are inexcusable. Thanks for the first 4 1/2 seasons, but enjoy your career elsewhere.
Dunta's weightspeed was too low
by texanphil on Feb 24, 2010 10:14 PM CST reply actions 7 recs
Totally agree with that.
He was a highlight of the team, but after the injury his mouth was bigger than his game.
by distant_texans_fan on Feb 24, 2010 10:43 PM CST up reply actions
Well said.
His is the only Texans’ jersey I own. I’m hoping we draft Patrick Robinson and he takes #23 so it’s still relevant. Then again, I might tape over it in that case and rewrite “Robinson” anyways for the sake of irony.
But seriously, thanks for flinging your 180-pound frame around with reckless abandon and being a better tackler than all of our LBs for the first few years. Wish shit hadn’t panned out the way it did…
by Nashmeister on Feb 24, 2010 11:22 PM CST up reply actions
What phil said.
I do appreciate what he’s done for our franchise. But after a season and a half of his crappy attitude and crappy performance, im happy that he’s off the team.
Richard Justice proves you can't fix STUPID
It is Texans’s fault Dunta going, so sayeth 3rd year old diarrhea mouth Justice
“So the Texans cut ties with Dunta Robinson, and you could see it coming from miles away. They’ve mishandled this deal every step of the way”
YEAH, what kind of bunglers offer a 5 year 23 million dollar contract. Boy they should have known, he thought he was more important to team then that
Houston’s resident poo flinging monkey has absolved Dunta of any blame, he can leave with justice’s lips firmly planted to his backside
Calling Battle Red on Dallas Cowgirls in 2010
My main concern is
damn im going to get my ass whooped on madden next year without dunta, i mean if u look at the games this year boy o boy i will be in trouble. Might have to start playing with another team if dunta not out there.
I didn't play with Dunta and did just fine
I’m not going to get into how bad the Madden’s rating system barely affects the game because I played better as the Texans than the Eagles or Vikings. But I will say that if you play zone, you can cover up how bad your corners are in that game. They might not make as many interceptions, but you won’t get beat every other play.
by theaxeeffect4311 on Feb 25, 2010 9:14 AM CST up reply actions
If losing DR causes more losses on madden but more wins in real life, I’m good with that.
Miss-placed Houstonian living and going to school in the wilderness of Wyoming. Fresno St. 28 - Wyoming 35 (2 OT)!!! Hands down best game I have ever been to.
With you on that bignate7
i had dunta out there on the game, but it was good to know u did not have to worry about getting beat by moss or other speed receiver in the game, but after dunta did u see the ratings of our corners in that game i hope next one is alot better please be alot better.
So with all the confusion about our defensive scheme
Do you think that the confusion and the “work in progress” defensive strategy of the 2009 season was why Mario was not doing as many sacks? As I was reading the back and forth about the confusion about what type of defense did the Texans have in 2009, I sort of wondered .. maybe the players were also sort of confused by the experimental defensive strategy?
What if Mario wasn’t letting Kubiak down so much as he was just confused as hell about what Frank Bush wanted out of the defense?
If Mario was being dutiful player and doing what he was told to do but what he was told to do was not taking his sacking ability into play? That might account for the disappointing sack record?
And so by the end of the season way more of the defense finally saw where Bush was going with his defensive strategy?
The experimental nature of the 2009 defense might also be why it LOOKED like Mario only shines in the pro bowl when it doesn’t matter but what might have actually been going on is that the pro bowl coach kept the defense to a recognizable scheme — nothing fancy. Maybe with some more study in the off season, the defense can better grasp what Bush wants from them?
What the hell, this thread is already like 800 posts, what's another 400
Maybe the Texans would’ve made the playoffs if they’d just hired a coordinator who actually had experience putting together a real defense.
- Rivers McCown, From Mom's Basement | Twitter
by riversmccown on Feb 26, 2010 12:36 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
So since we didn’t give Dunta 12 million, maybe we could go and sign us some Dansby?
www.manningface.com
serious question
I really don’t know much about Dansby, but he could be a big upgrade over Diles, but he would be very pricy.
www.manningface.com
Ah, upgrade
yeah, he’s definitely be an upgrade. Expensive though. I’m waiting until next Thursday to see which restricted free agents will be available.
by theaxeeffect4311 on Feb 25, 2010 7:47 PM CST up reply actions
Karlos Dansby
Is a helluva player. Unfortunately, I do not think you pay him the money he’s gonna get if you want to keep one DeMeco Ryans on your roster.
Looking forward to a day when being a Texans fan doesn't mean that April is the highlight of my season...
because it's someone else's money?
I suppose if all of the stars, moons and planets align it could be possible, but what are the chances of that?
Its always someone elses money
:(
Rudimentary creatures of flesh and blood, you touch my mind, fumbling in ignorance, incapable of understanding.
This thread is about half as long as the first pre-Indy thread
And not even 5% as epic.
I'll eliminate you like I eliminate gluten from my diet.
by tehGrindCrusher on Feb 26, 2010 1:21 PM CST reply actions
no charts
not even close
Dunta's weightspeed was too low
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