My Thought on RBs
by Rip Jersey on Mar 8, 2010 10:11 AM CST
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PrintThere is the thought that the Texans and Coach Kubiak want a more balanced offensive attack next season. That is a reasonable thought. Matt Schaub threw for a NFL high 583 attempts last season. The rushing game ranked 30th out of 32 teams. That is not balance.
In spite of my continued efforts to convince the world that the real problem with the offense is the offensive line, the world continues to report that the Texans are happy with Kasey Studdard as the starting Left Guard. Chris Myers, who is coming off shoulder surgery, continues to get support as the starting Center. Right Guard reportedly will be manned by second year player Antoine Caldwell or Chris White. I'm trying real hard not to make this about the offensive line, but I can't talk about the Running Backs until I have had my say, so bear with me
Mike Brisiel who was the starter at Right Guard beginning last season will return during training camp from his mended broken foot. So, I think at some point he will return to the starting lineup as one of the Guards. If he returns at Right Guard, doesn't that open an opportunity for Caldwell to compete with the undersized and mending Myers at Center?
And, what about Kasey Studdard? Is this a smokescreen or do the Texans coaches really want to have Kasey Studdard be the starter? I seriously think Chester Pitts' days are done as a Texan. Also, I am not sold on Duane Brown as the starting Left Tackle. Unless he shows marked improvement, I question how the Texans coaching staff can continue to believe that this team will be anything other than a "pass first and pass often" team. Because, with that offensive line, they are not running against the good defenses in the NFL. Doing it against the Buffaloes of the league doesn't cut it!
So, back to the Running Backs...Chris Brown is gone, am I right? He was the designated "big back" in the Texans offense. Now this is my theory on that. Don't replace him! Don't get all caught up in finding a "big back" to take Brown's place on the roster. Find the best 3 or 4 Running Backs and then shape your offense around your personnel. That's it! That's my thought!
Sorry for getting sidetracked on the offensive line, again....
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It's not hard to get sidetracked with O-line
when the O-line looks like the Texans and the coaches supposedly like players like Studdard and Myers. I think OT is a big priority this off-season because if we can grab a solid OT, Duane Brown can replace Pitts. I like that Caldwell gives us flexibility to choose between drafting a OC or OG.
Right, back to RBs…I agree entirely with the idea of not replacing Chris Brown. It’s not that we need a big back, we need a goal-line back. It’ll be interesting to see who the coaches bring in at RB whether that is through FA or the draft.
by theaxeeffect4311 on Mar 8, 2010 10:56 AM CST reply actions
I'm gonna correct something about "we need a goal-line back"
We needed that 1 yard in 2009.
2010 is a new season and we just need talent at the OL. 1 yard is more about the OL than the RB (although it would be nice if they held onto the ball).
A good OL makes everyone look better. Same with a good DL.
The O-line doesn't hold onto the ball.
by theaxeeffect4311 on Mar 8, 2010 12:12 PM CST up reply actions
I put that on the RB Coach
As it was happening early on, he should’ve helped correct that.
Yes, the RBs need to do their job, but a new RB won’t fix the running game. RB should be the least of our needs for that reason. Besides, this RB class isn’t that great (aside from Montario Hardesty).
I’d rather see Thomas Jones or Mike Bell here as opposed to using a draft pick (unless it’s for Montario Hardesty).
Agree with drafting Hardesty
I would challenge you to a battle of wits, but you appear to be unarmed.
by The Night Owl on Mar 9, 2010 11:53 AM CST up reply actions
Rip : Draft OL :: Shake : Trade back in R1
/end SAT example
If the Treasury Secretary doesn't have to pay taxes, then why do I?
Don't get too upset that The Texans are publicy happy with the o-line
What else are they going to say? Not a good motivational tool to run down guys on your roster without having back ups in place. If we don’t pick up someone in FA and the draft doesn’t fall right they are likely to be stuck with what they got. I’m sure internally they realize that improvements are needed. Everything Pancakes says is either wrong or a carefully crafted piece of PR spin directly from the Texans front office.
I think the line was generally average last year. They didn’t give up sacks, but Schaub got hit a lot. The line wasn’t even average run blocking last year, but the RB’s really didn’t do them any favors either. I though Slaton’s vision was poor last year and one of his biggest problems, Second to Fumbles of course.
I also keep hearing, “they can move Brown to Gaurd”. I’m not sure I’m sold on that idea. LT’s are targeted because they need to meet a very specific athletic profile. Brown fit that profile well, and I’m not sure how well he would do on the inside. He just doesn’t seem like a guard to me. This is Browns third year, so it’s getting close to judgment time for him. He’s wasn’t where I would hope he would be last year, but it seemed to me he has shown steady improvement as time has gone on.
If we sign the next Boselli (younger ass kicking Boselli not broken down expansion draft Boselli) or Orlando Pace then go ahead and try to move Brown. I’m just not so sure that will be an easy/successful transition. but of course I’m no expert on offensive line play. I was excited about Todd Wade when we signed him.
"Well, at least our players kept their helmets on, so that showed some intelligence"-Bob McNair
I agree that we should find the best 3-4 RBs we can
While its nice to have a speed back and a big back, its more important to have good backs. Right now, IMO, we dont have 1 quality starting RB on our team. Foster showed some glimpses of greatness in two games but struggled in two others. Slaton had a great rookie season, but we all know what happened in his sophomore year. Coming off the injury, we dont know what SS will be or when he will be healthy.
We need as many good backs as we can assemble. That doesnt mean draft one in the 1st round, but at the same time I think we should be open to drafting one in the 1st. If C.J. Spiller falls to us it will be extremely hard to justify taking someone else.
I think we will find out how confident the FO is in the OL by how early we draft a RB. In Denver Kubiak/Shanahan never drafted a RB in the 1st two rounds because they had a great OL. If Kubes is not overly confident in our OL I bet we take a RB earlier than most are expecting.
To all Houston sports fans, Houston is the 4th biggest city in America, there will be traffic on the way to your respective sports game. Come Early, Be Loud, Stay Late.
Not true
Clinton Portis – Round 2, pick 51; 2002
Tatum Bell – Round 2, pick 41; 2004
They have selected running backs early-ish.
I’m not objecting a RB, but the ones projected early, aside from Spiller, aren’t worth the pick. Best coming off a serious injury? Mathews? Overrated Dwyer? I mean come on now. It’s one thing if this draft class had early talent, but this one doesn’t.
Montario Hardesty posted very impressive numbers at the Combine. Despite putting on 10 pounds, Hardesty ran a 4.49, and paced all running backs in the vertical (41 inches) and broad jump (10-4). He’s a great fit for a zone-blocking team like Houston, Seattle or Washington.
People tend to forget that we need a specific style of running back. Montario Hardesty. Montario Hardesty. Montario Hardesty.
Montario Hardesty would be a good choice
I just hope we can get him in the third or fourth round.
by theaxeeffect4311 on Mar 8, 2010 4:07 PM CST up reply actions
I also like Hardesty a lot too
and Ben Tate
The only RB I want in the 1st is Spiller. Im not a big Best fan because I think he is the same player as SS and will have the same injury worries. Mathews in the 2nd would be nice depending on who else is available.
To all Houston sports fans, Houston is the 4th biggest city in America, there will be traffic on the way to your respective sports game. Come Early, Be Loud, Stay Late.
Geez guys...
what the hell is wrong with Toby G? He will be there in the 3rd round. He is big, physical, & ran a 4.5 at the combine so he even has some speed. That is the uber-Bronco RB that Kubiak loves. Other than Matthews or Spiller, no one deserves a sniff in the 1st round. With our pressing needs in the secondary, I wouldn’t be surprised if we didn’t go after a safety AND a CB just to plug the gaping hole we have back there.
"I've never gone into a game trying to win the Heisman Trophy; I go into a game trying to win." - Colt McCoy
I'm down
if for no other reason than I’d love the best RB available in the third round or later. I don’t have enough RB talent evaluation ability to say which RBs will be successful in the NFL, but at least you gave us two rounds to upgrade our OL to give all of our RBs a chance.
This time last year we said the same thing, and Smithiak brought us Foster.
Dunta's weightspeed was too low
I honestly don't think
Toby fits into the ZBS.
Even after that, I don’t see him running over NFL players as easily as he did Pac-10 pansies.
Also, in the 3rd round, I’d rather have Baylor’s JD Walton then take a RB in round 4.
What do you think he fits into??
Gerhart is a prototypical ZBS back. He’s big, he’s fast, and he’s not great at cutting. Most bigger backs fit into a zone scheme and Gerhart is not an exception. Also, is it really that difficult to teach someone who went to Stanford how to see a hole and run through it??
One more thing, I think you and most others posters are extremely overrating our RB situation. I think it is our biggest need behind CB. Foster has proven nothing, SS is coming off a neck injury and fumbling problems. Along with that, there’s this little trend going on in the NFL where teams have 2 serviceable backs. I dont think we have one right now.
To all Houston sports fans, Houston is the 4th biggest city in America, there will be traffic on the way to your respective sports game. Come Early, Be Loud, Stay Late.
If he's not great at cutting...
how does he fit into a system that means “one cut and go?” People are so enamored with Gerhart cause he ran over pansies and we couldn’t gain a yard. The difference is that yard is gone and those pansies have turned into Ray Lewis and Patrick Willis. Even his NFL comparison has him linked to Mike Alstott who simply ran straight ahead.
Montario Hardesty is described as perfect for a team with a ZBS scheme. Ben Tate reminds people of Clinton Portis who thrived in a ZBS scheme. Those are the backs we should target not someone like Gerhart.
As for why people are underrating the RB problem…it’s because, short of Jim Brown and Barry Sanders, no RB would have succeeded behind our 2009 offensive line. The interior is weak and gets pushed around. Maybe they’re unproven, but I love our RBs more than I do our collection of Cs and Gs who are mostly 6th rounders or undraftees (Caldwell aside).
And since when does late draft pick automatically mean horrible player??
I agree Myers and Breisel suck, but there is no reason to write off Studdard yet. He was a late round draft pick who is still developing. Last year was the most he ever played and just because he was below average in his first year starting doenst mean he will always suck. The coaching staff likes him and they know much better than we do. Im all for uprgrading the O Line, but I dont think its as horrible as people are making it out to be. Remember we did lose both starting guards, have two good running games the last two games of the season with Foster running and the line was consistently good protecting Schaub.
If Gerhart was a Mike Alstott player than he wouldnt be projected in the 3rd round. Gerhart has speed to go along with his power. The Pac-10 sucks, but thats not the reason he led the country in rushing yards.
What I meant by Gerhart not being a good cutter is that he’s not like Chris Johnson, Ray Rice, or another player who can cut one way and then immediately the other way. Of course Gerhart can make one cut, otherwise he wouldnt be in the NFL Draft.
To all Houston sports fans, Houston is the 4th biggest city in America, there will be traffic on the way to your respective sports game. Come Early, Be Loud, Stay Late.
Well...
To be fair, “below average” doesn’t do him justice. He was atrocious, evident both by the naked eye as well as PFO statistics. Could he improve? Certainly. It’d be hard not to. But given that he was a fifth-round pick (right?), there’s a pretty good chance that he won’t ever be an NFL-caliber offensive lineman.
I want him to succeed, obviously. Gotta root for everyone on the team. Apparently he has a mean streak; that’s something our offensive line could use. But I have this hunch that he’s only on the team because his his dad was a Denver boy and a friend of Kubiak. But I’m frightened of relying on him for a full season, mostly because I’d really like to see Schaub make it through a full season again.
I think you overrate our O-line
We allowed 25 sacks, but when you look at the stats,
6 division games; 1-5 record – 12 sacks allowed.
10 other games; 8-2 record – 13 sacks allowed.
It looks like the O-line needs an upgrade. If we can’t win in our division, we will not make it to the postseason. Add along that Schaub got hit 92 times last season (worst than the Chiefs or the Steelers), you have to think that protecting Schaub is crucial for our offense. The only linemen I want to see starting are Brown, Winston, Caldwell, and Pitts if he returns. Otherwise, we have more holes to fill. And without an O-line, a RB is going to do nothing and get banged up.
by theaxeeffect4311 on Mar 9, 2010 10:18 PM CST up reply actions
I totally agree about the divisional problems
And I agree that the O-line does need an update.
What I dont think is that the o-line is a much more important need than RB. A little bit more important, yes. Even if we have a great offensive line we still need a good RB to make it work. If Pitts returns and Caldwell has developed into a starter than we just need to fill one starting spot on the line. To me, starters always come before depth and I dont think we have a legit starting RB.
How many of those QB hits were due to Schaub holding onto the ball too long?? My bet is 25%.
Also, looking at those stats it shows the line can be good. 13 sacks in 10 games is very good actually. The difference between divisional and non divisional games is too big to only be blamed on the o-line.
To all Houston sports fans, Houston is the 4th biggest city in America, there will be traffic on the way to your respective sports game. Come Early, Be Loud, Stay Late.
by TexasHoosier on Mar 10, 2010 9:01 PM CST up reply actions
Who should we blame it on, then
The WRs? Yes, it’s their fault that divisional foes have their way with Schaub.
I suppose if all of the stars, moons and planets align it could be possible, but what are the chances of that?
How bout the coaching staff and Schaub
I remember at least one of the Jax sacks and one of the Tits sacks was entirely due to Schaub holding on to the ball too long. As for the coaching staff, the discrepancy between the sack numbers and the overall record makes me think the coaches were out coached by the divisional foes.
To all Houston sports fans, Houston is the 4th biggest city in America, there will be traffic on the way to your respective sports game. Come Early, Be Loud, Stay Late.
by TexasHoosier on Mar 10, 2010 9:40 PM CST up reply actions
I can't dismiss that thought
I have thought it too, that the divisional coaches do a good job coaching against the Texans.
Perhaps this is a topic for the Grind to address in the near future in a feature topic? Delegating again….
I suppose if all of the stars, moons and planets align it could be possible, but what are the chances of that?
Two sacks...
Does not a trend make.
There are a lot of reasons Schaub got hit a crap-ton, however, holding onto the ball too long is not one of them. One of the reasons Kubiak coveted Schaub was because of his quick reads and quick release.
Among the reasons might be the complete lack of a running game (I was completely baffled last year every time opposing teams bit on a play action fake), the inconsistent play from Schaub’s blind-side blocker (DB), the fact that he dropped back more times than any other passer in the league (due to a crappy running game), and the crappy interior offensive line.
I just have nightmares of Jenkins busting through Myers, and Duane Brown and Winston both getting off the snap two seconds late on the first play against Jacksonville. Add a few complete whiffs by Studdard, and you’ve got the makings of a very shoddy line. I find myself longing for a healthy Pitts, McKinney, and Weary.
by Nashmeister on Mar 10, 2010 10:24 PM CST up reply actions
Holding onto the ball is a component of the sack issue
Its not the lone issue, but there is clear evidence to Schaub holding onto the ball too long and paying the price.
Quick release has nothing to do with holding onto the ball too long. Quick release is how fast he can throw it once he decides to throw it, not how long it takes him from snap to throw.
Schaub did drop back the most in the league, but even with our craptastic offensive line Schaub was in the better half of sacks against. Credit that to Schaub for throwing the ball, but if our O-line was really as bad as people are making it out to be than Schaub would have been sacked more. Being the top passing team while being in the bottom half in sacks against means your O-Line is doing something right.
To all Houston sports fans, Houston is the 4th biggest city in America, there will be traffic on the way to your respective sports game. Come Early, Be Loud, Stay Late.
by TexasHoosier on Mar 10, 2010 10:37 PM CST up reply actions
I’m going to go with….our division puts a premium on getting to the QB.
We didn’t really face another team with a premiere pass rusher. The NFC West? No. The AFC East? No. Cincinnati post-Odom injury? No. Oakland? Hell no.
Indy? Yes. Tennessee and Jacksonville? Well, they have to play Peighton too…
Don’t let the stats mislead you.
So, I can't blame it on one thing
But personnel and coaching are pretty obvious. Maybe you can blame Schaub sometimes, but I thought his play last year did not suck that much in the division.
I suppose if all of the stars, moons and planets align it could be possible, but what are the chances of that?
Did you really just say the AFC East doesnt put a premium on getting to the QB??
Thats why the Dolphins were 3rd in sacks right?
49ers were 3rd also, Arizona was 6th, Oakland was 11th.
Compare that to our division and you see Indy at 16th, Tennessee 18th, and Jax 32nd and that includes the stockpile they got against us. The stats definitely back up your point. /sarcasm
To all Houston sports fans, Houston is the 4th biggest city in America, there will be traffic on the way to your respective sports game. Come Early, Be Loud, Stay Late.
by TexasHoosier on Mar 10, 2010 10:09 PM CST up reply actions
I said premiere pass rusher...
We’re talking Freeney, Mathis, Vanden Bosch…
And the bigger point is: We face the division every year. 6 games. Everyone else is going to change. If you can’t take care of the division (1-5) it doesn’t matter how you do outside of it (8-2). We’ve never really done anything in the division…that has to change.
Jacksonville may have been 32nd...
but they got 4 sacks on Schaub. As did the Colts and Tits.
Jacksonville added Kampman. The Tits will probably go DE in round 1…Jags may still add a DE…..those numbers may go up.
Why are our RBs overrated...
I’ll say because big name RBs are overrated. We do not need an every down back. In Dennison’s system, we carry a stable of running backs and they each play a certain part to the running attack. Whoever is thrown out there should be able to produce when their time comes. Therefore, while we could grab a running back high, more than likely we’ll target a certain guy who fits a mold who can usually be found in the later rounds.
On top of that, this is a weak year to even find an every down back. Spiller looks like a Reggie Bush/Felix Jones type and wouldn’t be able to carry a big load. Matthews has been vaulted into the first round and that’s too early for a guy who also struggled with fumbles in college. Plus, I don’t like it when players are raised up boards because of things like the Combine and the Senior Bowl. Before all that, Matthews was a borderline 2nd-3rd round guy. Best has concussion issues. Dwyer ran a 4.59 despite losing 10 lbs and has problems controlling his weight (LenDale White). That puts us into round 3 or 4 for a running back and I would think that anyone they add in either one of those rounds would be sufficient.
As far as Gerhart goes, I’d be ok with him. ZBS does require a back that can make the read then cut so as long as a back can do that, they should fit in. I like Gerhart for his footwork and balance. If Smithiak chooses him over the other guys, they must see something about him.
by theaxeeffect4311 on Mar 9, 2010 10:08 PM CST up reply actions
In every NFL system there is a stable of RBs
I dont think Spiller can carry a big load either, but what NFL back does anymore? I can only think of MJD, Chris Johnson and Stephen Jackson. Even the elite RBs have backups who get a good amount of carries. AD had Chester Taylor, the Jets had 3 good backs, DeAngelo Williams has Jonathan Stewart, Ray Rice has McGahee and McClain.
On top of that, there has been a trend for RBs entering the draft to be smaller and not made to be an every down back (think Reggie Bush, Ray Rice, Steve Slaton, Matt Forte, Chris Johnson). The NFL is changing into a more pass oriented league with multiple serviceable RBs. I dont think we can be confident about Slaton or Foster for next season due to Slaton’s injury and fumbling issues and Foster’s inexperience and fumbling issues. Because I feel we dont have 1 serviceable back and the changing NFL, I think RB is a big concern. At the same time though, I dont think we should reach for anyone or take a back that is the same mold as Slaton (read: Best).
If we have a game changing RB it will open up the passing game even more and take pressure and hits off of Schaub.
To all Houston sports fans, Houston is the 4th biggest city in America, there will be traffic on the way to your respective sports game. Come Early, Be Loud, Stay Late.
by TexasHoosier on Mar 10, 2010 9:16 PM CST up reply actions
We thought Slaton was that game changer going into last season
This year, you’re right. Slaton can’t be expected to be the game changer coming off his surgery. Spiller could be that guy, but I don’t think he will be there at 20.
But, even with the Wade Smith pick-up, I can’t say that he has improved the interior line. He is a career backup with some starting experience last season on one of the worst O-lines in the league. That team thought so much of him that they didn’t want to resign him. They were content to see him walk and now they have to fill his spot.
The Texans still need their O-lineman.
I suppose if all of the stars, moons and planets align it could be possible, but what are the chances of that?
His PFF stats show Smith's better than anyone we got already
I doubt Spiller will be available at 20 either, but if he is and there arent any CBs or DTs worthy than I think we have to take him because we cant trust Slaton. If Slaton comes back and is good again and we have Spiller than our RB problem is solved.
To all Houston sports fans, Houston is the 4th biggest city in America, there will be traffic on the way to your respective sports game. Come Early, Be Loud, Stay Late.
by TexasHoosier on Mar 10, 2010 9:42 PM CST up reply actions
Because PFF said it, it must be good
It also says Lilja is the 16th best so did we pull the trigger a little early?
by theaxeeffect4311 on Mar 10, 2010 9:46 PM CST up reply actions
Im not a big fan of PFF either
but it seems everyone else here is. Sorry for grouping you with everyone else.
To all Houston sports fans, Houston is the 4th biggest city in America, there will be traffic on the way to your respective sports game. Come Early, Be Loud, Stay Late.
by TexasHoosier on Mar 10, 2010 9:59 PM CST up reply actions
It's ok
I can forgive you for this one. It’s a good site for a little insight, but it’s not the Bible like some hold it to. The problem I have with the Smith signing is the money. At that cost, he is almost guaranteed a starting position when he has not shown much that he can be a legit starter or that he will fit in our new system.
by theaxeeffect4311 on Mar 10, 2010 10:24 PM CST up reply actions
I get what your getting at
But I trust Smithiak on this one. After the Bodden escapade we know that McNair wont over spend. Obviously they thought the money we are giving him is worth it. They wouldnt sign someone who they think wont fit our system, which could have been the Bodden issue also. I also dont think they would give him that much if they dont think he can start or compete to start. Maybe they think he is a better fit in a zone blocking scheme than whatever KC runs. Also, if the contract is front loaded (like most have been this offseason) than the money doesnt affect us because its an uncapped year.
To all Houston sports fans, Houston is the 4th biggest city in America, there will be traffic on the way to your respective sports game. Come Early, Be Loud, Stay Late.
by TexasHoosier on Mar 10, 2010 10:31 PM CST up reply actions
I think with the Wade Smith signing
We have seen Smithiak go out and try to fill their dancecard for the free agent season. They looked at the team, determined where the holes were that they wanted to fill with free agents. They tabbed, from the looks of it, CB and interior OL. They swung and missed on Bodden at CB. They didn’t want to be sitting on the sidelines without having danced, so they reached for Wade Smith and in the process, likely overpaid.
I suppose if all of the stars, moons and planets align it could be possible, but what are the chances of that?
Hold on
first of all, Matt Forte is not a small back (6’2", 218 lbs). But I guess what I mean by stable is a bunch of no name RBs who together can amass over 100 yards rushing in any given game. Don’t be fooled by names like Clinton Portis. Dennison was only the O-line coach when Portis joined the team. But just to be clear, are you saying we need to draft a RB high to grab who exactly?
If you are looking for a serviceable back through FA, look at Mike Bell who used to be part of Dennison’s system.
by theaxeeffect4311 on Mar 10, 2010 9:43 PM CST up reply actions
Steve Slaton weighed 215 last year while being 3 inches shorter
That makes him bigger than Forte in NFL terms but Slaton is not a big back.
Kubiak was OC in Denver, Dennison was OL coach then OC. They didnt have as big of a say in the draft as they do now. When you actually examine the Denver drafts though you see facts that you wouldnt expect.
In Kubiak’s last 4 drafts in Denver as OC the Broncos drafted a RB in the 2nd, 4th, 2nd, and 3rd rounds. In ’02 it was Portis with the 19th pick in the 2nd round, he was a big name coming out. ’03 was Quentin Griffin with the 11th pick in round 4, he was a semi big name. ’04 was Tatum Bell, another big name then, with the 9th pick in the 2nd. ’05 was Maurice Clarett, a semi big name, with the 37th pick in the 3rd.
The whole process of thinking that we wont draft a RB early because Denver never did it is flawed. We arent Denver. We we have some of the same characteristics, but Denver was a better running team than passing team where we are opposite. Denver also had an amazing offensive line already built that allowed them to plug in those so called “no name backs.”
To all Houston sports fans, Houston is the 4th biggest city in America, there will be traffic on the way to your respective sports game. Come Early, Be Loud, Stay Late.
by TexasHoosier on Mar 10, 2010 10:21 PM CST up reply actions
Admittedly
I’m in love with Gerhart in the 3rd round. But I’m not sure he makes it to us that late. It may require move up in the 3rd or a trade down in the second to get him. I just saw a reply of his 40yd at the combine he looked fast and the time impressed me. Never thought he’d run that well.
"380 pounds of pure pirogi" ~ Cush
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