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Around SBN: Ray Allen Fighting Age, Injury And His New Role

Toward A Revised Theory On Draft Strategy

This was originally posted at DGDB&D about a year ago.  I have updated and tweaked it for re-posting here.

Classic Definitions of "Reach"
. There exists a general consensus when discussing the draft that teams must avoid "reaching" for a player. Loosely, I think we can define "reach" in this classic sense as

Selection of X before pick Y1, where Y1 is the upper limit of a player’s likely draft range assigned by ranking all available players against one another. (i.e. The player "should" go between picks 15-25, thus a pick above 15 is a classic reach.)

Obviously, I suppose, within this traditional framework, there is some gray area — there are varying degrees of reach, such that the team taking our hypothetical 15-25 player at 14 is not near as "incorrect" in their selection as the team taking him at, say, 8.

Star-divide

Implicit in this classic definition of reach is the definition of a "good" pick, defined as:

Selection of X between picks Y1 and Y2, where Y1 and Y2 are the top/bottom limits of the player’s likely draft range, with a selection made after Y2 defined as a value pick.

Problems with the Classic Definition. On its face, the classic equation seems valid enough. Given enough rankings, one could conceivably compile them and arrive at an upper and lower limit for each player. The problem lies in the underlying determination of a player’s value. More specifically, the theory assumes some sort of fixed value for each player that allows them to be ranked in a meaningful way; it assumes that the ranking accounts for all (or nearly all) of the variables so that one can accurately compare players of two different positions, from two different teams, who played under myriad different conditions, and come up with a determination of which player is "better." Such an assumption is inherently false — it has to be — because the data required to accurately compare two players makes your model too narrow to compare many others. This phenomenon is not unique to football.

Captain, there seems to be something approaching. I believe...yes...it's a strained analogy!

In particle physics, there is a theory called the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle, which states that certain physical properties (position and momentum) of a given particle cannot both have precise measurements at the same time — that the more specific you get with one of the measurements, the more general you must be with the other because defining one necessarily excludes, limits, or ignores the other.

While not perfectly analogous, I think you can apply a similar idea to the ranking or relative draft value of players — the more you try to pin down exactly where a player should be drafted in relation to other players, the fewer players you can actually rank (and vice versa: the more players you try to rank, the less accurate you can be with their specific relative values). This is due to the overwhelming number of variables that you have to consider if you want to arrive at your best specific comparison.

Here’s what I mean: I can tell you with a fair amount of certainty that Dez Bryant is a better wide receiver than Demaryius Thomas because I can account for a large number of variables vis- à -vis two guys who play the same position at the same collegiate level. I can look at all sorts of physical measurements, game film against any common opponents, game film in general to get an idea of route running/hands/attitude, interviews with each, college stats, and pretty much any other metric you can conceive. With that much information available, I can reach a fairly solid conclusion. And, if I want to extrapolate a little further, I can compare two players, decide which one is better in the abstract, and then factor in team-specific variables (offensive style, personnel, coaching philosophy or preference, etc.) to decide which one is better for any given team.

Now, contrast that with what I can factor in if I want to compare all the players. Physical measurements don’t work very well because you can’t directly compare a DT and a WR, so you are left comparing each player with a hypothetical archetype of WR or DT, then comparing how each stacked up in those comparisons. Game film against common opponents isn’t overly handy, except in position-specific comparisons (i.e. which OT is better?). You’re left with very few variables that are universally applicable in your comparison and you can’t even begin to factor in team-specific variables beyond the first few picks (due to the number of "if Team A takes X, then Team B will look at…" variables that build upon one another). Because of this inherent inaccuracy, these general draft rankings, at best, give you a big picture idea of how to group players — that is, they give you a roadmap where you can say that these 40 or so players are all roughly equal in terms of their likelihood of NFL success and any 32 of them could go in the first, etc.

I would wager that, with very few exceptions, you can’t get any closer than +/- 20 as a margin of error, though I haven’t tested that part of the hypothesis.

Which brings me back to my initial point: defining which picks are or are not a "reach" based on how they match up with a small range of possible pick values is flawed from the start because it assumes a ranking accuracy that simply doesn’t exist.

[A quick aside: This problem of assuming accuracy in the rankings is exacerbated by any true "best player available" approach. Without accounting for team-specific variables, there's no way to say that the rankings represent the "best" choices for a specific team. The SLB who is supposed to go around 15 might not be near as good a fit for your team as the kid who is supposed to go around 40, but the reliance on rankings such as these when determining BPA (and the reluctance to appear to be reaching) means that a team will more likely than not take the former kid. Which means, ironically, they didn't get the best player available because they were trying to take the "best" player available.]

Trading down as it relates to classically-defined "reach." An offshoot of defining "reach" as we have above is that teams talk about trading down so that they are choosing between the Y1 and Y2 range for the player they are targeting. The problem with this, as should be obvious, is that the Y1 and Y2 are arbitrarily defined, meaning that even trading down doesn’t guarantee you aren’t "reaching" in some sense of the word. Because value can only be defined in this context after the player has played in the NFL, a pick at any position today could be seen in retrospect as a reach or a steal. While such hindsight evaluation is pretty much useless going forward, it serves to illustrate the inexact nature of the rankings.

Which, of course, isn’t to say that trading down is pointless. If you are targeting a specific player and you know you can trade down, gain some extra draft picks, and still get your player (within N% degree of certainty, N approaching 100% in this case), then trading down is a fantastic strategic move. But that’s only if you can still get your targeted player. Assuming a correct evaluation on your part to determine which player best suits your team, getting that player at 15 (or wherever) has more intrinsic value than getting an extra fifth-round pick (or whatever) and missing your targeted player.

The other role trading down serves, which remains somewhat independent of this analysis, is in a situation where a team isn’t enamored with any specific player, but rather has four of five that they consider equal in terms of value to the team, so they trade down with the idea of taking whichever player remains on the board when their turn comes up. This is still a valid strategy, assuming a team is not making their decision on whether they like or don’t like a player in the initial draft slot based on which players are "supposed" to go there.

Redefining. Before I get to my revised draft theory, we need to rework our reach equation to account for the uncertainty discussed above. Thus, I’ve redefined it to be

Selection of X at pick Y when X is N% likely to have been available at pick Z, where Y is your current round selection, Z is your selection in any subsequent round, and N is a percentage based on team-specific needs (including organizational risk aversion)

Just as with classic reach, this new definition impliedly carries a definition for a "good" pick.

Selection of X at pick Y where X is more than N% likely to have taken before pick Z, where N varies depending on whether X is seen to fill an immediate starting need (such that N is appreciably lower if X is likely to be a starter)

The point of it all: The Revised Theory. Using our new metrics, I propose a shift in the way teams approach each pick. To wit (and using 75 and 90 as our N% numbers for illustrative purposes):

Team determines which starting positions could conceivably be filled by a draft pick, then ranks those positions in order of priority based on team philosophy, etc.

First round: Team looks at all players who could fill a starting slot and who are more than 75% likely to be taken before Team’s second round pick (for example, the Texans would look at all players more than 75% likely to be taken before pick 51, which would probably include the top 60-70 players as ranked by draftniks). Team ignores players at positions unlikely to be filled by a rookie unless there are too few players in the other category. Team then ranks the players according to its own needs (i.e. the team-specific variables again), ignoring the projected draft slots for each as determined by media/talking heads. When the Team’s first-round pick comes up, first remaining player on the list is taken.

Second round: Team looks at all players more than 75% likely to be taken between its first-round pick (to account for any players who might inexplicably slide) and its third-round pick. Same ranking process and selection process as above.

Third round: Team looks at all players more than likely (based on 75/90 percentages) to be taken between its second and fourth round picks. Same process as above.

The strategy shifts a bit for rounds 4-7, as the Team looks at those four rounds as two separate groups of people instead of four.

Four/Five: Team looks at all players likely to be taken between its third-round pick and the end of round 5 (because guessing this group down to your specific pick is pointless, as there are too many variables and many of these guys, especially by the end of the fifth, are fungible to a certain extent). Rank and pick as above, with an eye toward depth at key positions starting in Rd 5.

Six/Seven: Team looks at all players likely to be taken in the sixth or seventh as determined by a consensus of draft predictors (see…they aren’t totally useless!). Rank and pick as above, with an eye toward depth.

Conclusion. Obviously, this approach is an attempt to get teams to take a big-picture view of the draft. At its heart, the theory is a simple one: Nothing is a reach if you are taking the best player for your team that you would not be able to get later. The likelihood (N) percentages and even some of the cutoffs for player groups, especially in later rounds, are open to interpretation and argument.

The beauty of this theory, if I do say so myself, is in its simplicity. The only important thing is targeting the best player for YOU, Mel Kiper, et al, be damned. If you can trade down and still get that player, great! If not, you take the player rather than a blind trade down. In the end, the payoff should be much great and much more consistent, as you are applying the things important to you to a broader group of players in each round. Basically, the theory removes artificial restrictions that are inherently incapable of being accurate anyway. I fail to see how that is a bad thing, provided your team is capable of accurately evaluating talent (which is a whole other post).

Postscript: To A Deeelux Apartment In The Skyyyyyyyyy. When I originally wrote this post, I noted that it could conceivably work for trade-up scenarios, though I wasn't exactly sure how. I've attempted to work that out here, so those of you who have read this far are treated to bonus material. It's like the director's cut of a DVD, only without Edward Norton giving pithy commentary.

Switching from moving down to moving (on) up requires the introduction of two more variables.  First, we need to quantify the difference in terms of impact that the targeted player would have over the player currently on our roster who is slated to be the starter at that position.  Quantifying such things is undoubtedly hard and requires making some assumptions that you have no concrete basis for (i.e. "This kid is not going to blow out both ACLs during camp.")  To normalize, we'll translate each players' perceived value into a number between 0 and 100, where 100 is the absolute best player possible at that position and 0 is David Carr.  We'll call the difference between the two players "D."

The second variable is a team-specific measurement of what D is actually worth to your team based on scheme, coaching, etc.  Think of it as marginal value in a football context -- we want to know how much that 65 point jump from Shaun Cody to Dan Williams is actually worth to us.  We'll call this contextualized D "D+."

So, fancy new D+ variable in hand, what do we have for an overall theory?  Recall that our equation for trading down was, more or less, N% chance to get your targeted player at your new, lower draft position, where N approaches 100%.  (I realize that I am not accounting for the possibility that the value of the trade package could be high enough that failing to get your targeted player would not be a huge deal, but that is another post for another day.)

To account for our new variable, the equation for a good trade-up scenario would then be:

Pick of player X made at pick Y in exchange for pick Z + value, where:

  1. D+ > ((Z + value) - Y),
  2. Player X is N% likely to NOT be available at pick Z, and
  3. No player N% likely to be available at pick Z offers a comparable D+.

That is, where the marginal benefit to your team is greater than what you have to give up to get the player, the player is highly unlikely to be available with your original pick, and you can't get similar benefits from a different player by standing pat, you're in a scenario where a trade up makes sense.

The hard part here, as I see it, is being realistic in calculating D and D+ and in being able to determine the appropriate "value" to be included with Z.  I feel like the old draft pick value chart is useless in this equation simply because of how much emphasis it places on first-round picks, but I haven't checked this to be sure.

Comment 59 comments  |  8 recs  | 

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I would like you to add

pie charts, bar graphs, and line graphs… so i can stare at the pretty colors and go “ooooo”
btw intersting post MDC

"Your mother is a hamster and your father smells of elderberries! Now Go away or I shall taunt you a second time!"
Go Texans!

by Taco Joe on Apr 20, 2010 10:53 AM CDT reply actions  

oh and one more thing

yahoo posted this about draft and how the APRIL is NFL LIES MONTH

"Your mother is a hamster and your father smells of elderberries! Now Go away or I shall taunt you a second time!"
Go Texans!

by Taco Joe on Apr 20, 2010 10:55 AM CDT up reply actions  

This is why we aren't taking Mathews

It’s not how our, or many, staffs operate.

A Texans fan. Really. No, I'm not kidding.
http://www.battleredblog.com

by bigfatdrunk on Apr 20, 2010 10:59 AM CDT up reply actions  

I totally concur

The Texans like the colts from the article like to pick people they haven’t even sent a postcard too. a la Brian Cushing

"Your mother is a hamster and your father smells of elderberries! Now Go away or I shall taunt you a second time!"
Go Texans!

by Taco Joe on Apr 20, 2010 11:01 AM CDT up reply actions  

Yay for math!

A Texans fan. Really. No, I'm not kidding.
http://www.battleredblog.com

by bigfatdrunk on Apr 20, 2010 10:59 AM CDT reply actions  

my own equation

“Hooray Beer!” > “Yay for math!”

by grungedave on Apr 20, 2010 11:37 AM CDT up reply actions  

if I wanted to put my math/physics degree to use...

…. I wouldn’t have gone to law school. Now my head hurts.

by grungedave on Apr 20, 2010 11:15 AM CDT reply actions  

Enjoyed This Post Last Year

And I enjoy it now.

The “trading up equation,” to me, means that there are very, very, very few players ever worth moving up to get.

Looking forward to a day when being a Texans fan doesn't mean that April is the highlight of my season...

by Tim on Apr 20, 2010 11:24 AM CDT reply actions  

I would agree with that conclusion.

Wholeheartedly, in fact. I think it would be a situation where you are moving from, say, fourth to first in order to replace David Carr with Peyton Manning when you already have all the other pieces we currently have.

" If CB is a big hole, Dunta was the shovel."
- Rivers McCown

by MDC on Apr 20, 2010 11:34 AM CDT up reply actions  

It's a very sound theory

You either need extremely good foresight to get the non-bust or you have to have such a good team in place that you don’t need many pieces.

"Lord, beer me strength."

by TexansDC on Apr 20, 2010 11:47 AM CDT up reply actions  

Like Jason Babin, that was Casserly in his finest hour

It took the Astros 44 years to get to the Series, the Oilers-Texans are due to get to the big dance...Go Texans!!!!!

by oiler-texan diehard on Apr 20, 2010 2:28 PM CDT up reply actions  

jason babin

reminded me of a short batista with half the bad ass factor… And that was for a wwe wrestler

"Your mother is a hamster and your father smells of elderberries! Now Go away or I shall taunt you a second time!"
Go Texans!

by Taco Joe on Apr 20, 2010 3:02 PM CDT up reply actions  

Isn't it ironic

that Babin is playing for the TITS now?

by Jordann on Apr 21, 2010 9:53 AM CDT up reply actions  

by playing

do you mean being VY’s fluffeR?

"Your mother is a hamster and your father smells of elderberries! Now Go away or I shall taunt you a second time!"
Go Texans!

by Taco Joe on Apr 21, 2010 12:23 PM CDT up reply actions  

I mean

we used the pick we got from methopotamia to draft Babin and now he’s with them.

by Jordann on Apr 21, 2010 6:06 PM CDT up reply actions  

Truth being stranger than fiction in this case

Realistically this looks like a positive for us because Babin has bounced around so apparently has no great value, showing that the TITS front 7 is likely not that good. Let’s beat ’em twice this year.

It took the Astros 44 years to get to the Series, the Oilers-Texans are due to get to the big dance...Go Texans!!!!!

by oiler-texan diehard on Apr 22, 2010 11:24 PM CDT up reply actions  

::gurgle::

::drool::

Particle…::hiccup::…Physics?

You lost me at Dilbert.

Just your average, run of the mill hardcore casual Texans fan.

Twitter

by Autra on Apr 20, 2010 11:28 AM CDT reply actions  

Very good read

While the old value chart is useless, I know SoCalStites (from Big Cat Country) made a new chart based on a recent history of draft trades because he felt it was outdated as well. Worth a look here.

"Lord, beer me strength."

by TexansDC on Apr 20, 2010 11:33 AM CDT reply actions  

Gerhart makes me wonder could we take a white RB

and succeed? I think he might actually be a good pick.
but a lot of people are looking at the color of his skin.

"Your mother is a hamster and your father smells of elderberries! Now Go away or I shall taunt you a second time!"
Go Texans!

by Taco Joe on Apr 20, 2010 11:37 AM CDT reply actions  

It's an interesting spin, but I agree with this part most
"I don’t like him," one NFC general manager told me at the combine. "If he’s your No. 1 back, he’s going to get killed by the end of the season, because he takes too many hits. And he has no special teams value. To me, what you see is what you get. He’s pretty good at everything, but he doesn’t do anything that’s special at our level."

Said an AFC front-office executive: "This guy runs exactly the way the hole is blocked and gets exactly what you think he’s going to get – maybe a little more because he runs so hard, but nothing more explosive than that. He runs so upright, he’s going to get lit up."’

Of course, I agree because my opinion has been A) he’s got no upside/potential to tap B) he offers nothing more than a short-yard specialist C) his running style is going to get him injuried and/or make him easier to tackle in the pros D) in pads, he lacks the lateral quickness you’d want in a ZBS RB.

"Lord, beer me strength."

by TexansDC on Apr 20, 2010 11:43 AM CDT up reply actions  

But TDC

he spanked the Trojans… I see him as a mid to late 2nd rnd.. but i think the article may be right… he might have been a 1st rnd choice if he was black… I think he is better than Mathews though… and now i shall receive shit from the Mathews fanboys yay

"Your mother is a hamster and your father smells of elderberries! Now Go away or I shall taunt you a second time!"
Go Texans!

by Taco Joe on Apr 20, 2010 11:52 AM CDT up reply actions  

I'd be all for taking Gerhart but I wouldn't mind Hardesty either

I would challenge you to a battle of wits, but you appear to be unarmed.

by The Night Owl on Apr 20, 2010 12:00 PM CDT up reply actions  

Marshawn Lynch is on the block

Tell me you wouldn’t trade say next years 4th rounder for him. Yea he’s hood as shit and a possible liability because he’s retarded, but he’s a bulldozer and he knows runs physical between the tackles. Make it happen Rick…then use our 1st 3 picks on a DB, DT, and OL like you should.

by leacheatsbabies on Apr 20, 2010 12:18 PM CDT up reply actions  

he would have to get a new grill though..

"Your mother is a hamster and your father smells of elderberries! Now Go away or I shall taunt you a second time!"
Go Texans!

by Taco Joe on Apr 20, 2010 12:30 PM CDT up reply actions  

and...

Houston would have to stop closing all the Applebee’s restaurants in the area. Marshawn’s a big fan.

by grungedave on Apr 20, 2010 12:35 PM CDT up reply actions  

lol kerns,

and nightowl… i like hardesty too… It all depends on who goes to whom.

"Your mother is a hamster and your father smells of elderberries! Now Go away or I shall taunt you a second time!"
Go Texans!

by Taco Joe on Apr 20, 2010 12:12 PM CDT up reply actions  

I like Gerhart

Of course, I agree because my opinion has been A) he’s got no upside/potential to tap B) he offers nothing more than a short-yard specialist C) his running style is going to get him injuried and/or make him easier to tackle in the pros D) in pads, he lacks the lateral quickness you’d want in a ZBS RB.
“TexansDC”

D-This is more of philosophical disagreement on my part in general, but I don’t think a RB needs to have “lateral quickness” to succeed in the ZBS. Its probably just semantics, but when I hear lateral quickness I think of a guy dancing his way through the hole. The basic requirement for a back in our system is to read the blocks, plant your foot, and get downhill. One cut and go doesn’t require a lot of lateral quickness. Kubiak/Gibbs mentioned many times that they want guys who can get downhill.

There are plenty of legitimate critiques of Gerhart in particular. He does run high, but there have been plenty of backs with that problem who were successful. I would hesitate to give a guy like him a big extension after his rookie deal, but that applies to most RB’s in my opinion. I’m not exactly pimping him as our draft choice in the second or anything, but in my perfect world we don’t touch a RB until rd 3 or later anyway. I do think he could be successful for us especially as part of a tandem, but I think we will have better options in the second and he will likely be gone before we pick in the 3rd.

"Well, at least our players kept their helmets on, so that showed some intelligence"-Bob McNair

by papabear on Apr 21, 2010 3:07 PM CDT up reply actions  

...

What just happened to my brain?

by Da babyfacedassassin Meco on Apr 20, 2010 12:20 PM CDT via mobile reply actions  

Absolutely amazing article!

Yes there were times I had to reread a couple times but thats where all the calculus and discrete math class practice comes in.

One small addition that I feel would need to be made if this theory was actually picked up by a Front Office would be the financial factor of each pick in trading up and down and what not, but I’m sure you had already thought of that.

Once again wonderful post, wish I knew about all these sites last year.

by Albiceleste on Apr 20, 2010 12:25 PM CDT reply actions  

Re: Finances

I am working on a Theory Of Everything for running an NFL team and trying to factor in finances there, so I kind of skipped that here. I suppose that factors into the “value” part for the trade up scenario, but you are correct that it probably needs to be addressed directly.

" If CB is a big hole, Dunta was the shovel."
- Rivers McCown

by MDC on Apr 20, 2010 1:47 PM CDT up reply actions  

Ok

So I had to kick the kids out of the computer room, allowing them to destroy my house(well, ok, my "Deeelux Apartment In The SkyyyyyyyyySuburbsssss), but I got a few minutes of quiet to read over this.

Needless to say, rec’d.

Also, I like the trading up info, but how viable is any of that in a realistic sense? Maybe I’m still digesting it all, so it’s not coming clear, but to me it almost seems like you’d need a seperate equation for the front half of the first round and then a new one for the rest of the first and the second(maybe third?), then yet again another one for the last rounds. I only say that because it’s harder to tell when a lot of the later round’s players will go, and different teams(to a certain extent) have different draft grades on many players.

Just your average, run of the mill hardcore casual Texans fan.

Twitter

by Autra on Apr 20, 2010 12:34 PM CDT reply actions  

It's as realistic as anything can be.

Smithiak reads this every night before the draft.

Or so I heard.

by Jordann on Apr 21, 2010 9:55 AM CDT up reply actions  

Perhaps I overlooked it...

but something that is a variable in the formula….or maybe its not…..draft class position depth? Where does this factor in or should it?

"Lord, beer me strength."

by TexansDC on Apr 20, 2010 1:11 PM CDT reply actions  

Oooh, very nice.

Had not considered that angle, but it will definitely be in the v. 3.0 of this post.

" If CB is a big hole, Dunta was the shovel."
- Rivers McCown

by MDC on Apr 20, 2010 1:52 PM CDT up reply actions  

Nice find, TDC

I was actually expecting that to be part of this redux from MDC….especially with how much discussion has been had here at BRB over the past few months.

In the trade down scenario, I am expecting v3.0 to include the position depth at the position(s) of interest/need for a team.

In other words, there should be some way to mathematically represent the scenario of trading down from the opportunity to draft 1 guy in R1 to drafting 2 in R2 and 2 in R3. Hypothetically, it should be extremely beneficial if your team’s top 3-4 perceived position needs have only marginal talent dropoff from R1→R2→R3………positions like CB/NT/RB. Hypothetically.

If the Treasury Secretary doesn't have to pay taxes, then why do I?

by Shake on Apr 21, 2010 8:56 AM CDT up reply actions  

Hypothetically...

I mean, for example…

The Chiefs have holes everywhere. At MtD, they surprised people and took ILB Rolando McClain at pick 5 over FS Eric Berry. At first glance, it’s a “dumb” pick because they passed on Berry who is a top 5 guy in everyone’s mind for McClain who’s 10-15 on “most” boards.

However, looking at it from the angle I threw in…the ILB drop off is pretty big compared to the FS position. In that sense…McClain’s the easy pick despite most people thinking Berry’s gonna be a great/special player.

It’s an interesting little angle…hypothetically speaking.

"Lord, beer me strength."

by TexansDC on Apr 21, 2010 11:48 AM CDT up reply actions  

It should come as no surprise that I endorse this article

Any article that follows up a Dilbert reference with one to Heisenberg’s Uncertainty Principle is going to get my juices flowing. I like the thought that went into it. As a public disciple of the trade down school of drafting, I think there’s a lot of grist there.

The cool thing about this is that it’s kind of idiot-proof. Kind of. You’re looking across a band of players at whatever your deficiencies are. Lots to think about here.

I'll eliminate you like I eliminate gluten from my diet.

by tehGrindCrusher on Apr 20, 2010 1:29 PM CDT reply actions  

Is there a podcast for this???

Confucius say "man who enter door sideways going to Bangkok".

by Bobobigbro on Apr 20, 2010 1:47 PM CDT reply actions  

Need something to help you sleep?

A Texans fan. Really. No, I'm not kidding.
http://www.battleredblog.com

by bigfatdrunk on Apr 20, 2010 1:48 PM CDT up reply actions  

Nope, I got stuff for that.

I’m just too lazy to read it right now.

Confucius say "man who enter door sideways going to Bangkok".

by Bobobigbro on Apr 20, 2010 1:53 PM CDT up reply actions  

in other words

bobo sez, tl;dr

"Your mother is a hamster and your father smells of elderberries! Now Go away or I shall taunt you a second time!"
Go Texans!

by Taco Joe on Apr 20, 2010 3:03 PM CDT up reply actions  

No...

it was part of a mock where they included jerseys of the prospect…

That would be Kyle Wilson’s 21…dreamy sigh

"Lord, beer me strength."

by TexansDC on Apr 20, 2010 4:42 PM CDT up reply actions  

Interesting!

A few comments:

First: Your formula for reaches seems too subjective. For example, and in particular when you are drafting with the likes of the raiders, you will never (or should never) be 100% certain that any player will be available at your next pick. Given that the appropriate value for N appears to depend on things like organizational risk aversion, this may well mean that a suitably risk averse team can never reach. By definition. And that seems wrong.

For example, say you grade a safety out at round 5 material. You are picking in the second. You aren’t 100% sure he will be there at round 3, because, you know, crazy stuff happens. Your organization is incredibly risk averse, so has a very high value for N. And you pick him. From what I can tell, your formula would not count this as a reach, which is crazy. In fact, something like this happened last year with the lions. This is kind of an extreme example, but I think it could generalize. So there have to be constraints on appropriate values of N (maybe you did mean for there to be so?)

Second: I don’t understand the part of your revised draft formula that says look at players who are 75% likely to be picked between your first round pick and your third round pick when figuring out how to pick in the second round. Shouldn’t you instead just take all players who are available at the time of your second pick, and look at all of those 75% likely to be picked before your next pick? I mean, by the time you pick, you already know who is available and who isn’t: who cares about anything other than who the available players are right now, and how likely they are to be picked before your next pick?

Finally, yet another problem with the Y1 and Y2 numbers for the classic definition is you are not assured that, say, there are exactly 11 players rated 15-25, particularly if you are compiling them from multiple sources (I suppose a single person coming up with their own rankings could make sure this didn’t happen). If there are less, you are building into the classic definition that there will be a reach in the draft. If there are more, you are guaranteeing what I suppose would be “classically defined” as a “great” pick, i.e., one made below y2.

by killtacular on Apr 20, 2010 8:26 PM CDT reply actions   2 recs

Thanks for the feedback

Re: 1. I agree that it can break down in the extreme examples, but that’s the nature of such things, I suppose. Ideally, we would run the numbers and arrive at an “optimal” N that effectively balanced the team’s aversion to risk with other factors (historical drafting patterns like “teams rarely take safeties in the first round,” for example) and was more universally applicable. My guess is that the number is closer to 75%, but actually figuring that out is outside the scope of this post (and my abilities).

Re: 2. The reasoning is in the parenthetical, “to account for any players who might inexplicably slide) .” It’s just a shorthand way to state the obvious premise that guys you assumed would be gone before your second pick should be rated higher than guys you think will be gone before your third.

Re: 3. There will be exactly 11 players in that range because we are talking about general consensus. Each team, to a certain extent, will be creating their own list, but it’s easier to think of it more as taking the upper and lower projected draft slots (not counting any outliers) for the players and putting the players back in order based on that range. (The fact that we can’t specifically get closer than a range gets back to the uncertainty problem at the beginning.) I see what you are saying, but think of it as two separate components: the list is a master list that averages all non-outlier scores for each pick and creates a new list based on those scores; the range is the high and low non-outlier scores for a specific person.

" If CB is a big hole, Dunta was the shovel."
- Rivers McCown

by MDC on Apr 20, 2010 10:09 PM CDT up reply actions  

Things that cannot be explained mathematically:

Why does Shake debate like a lawyer, and MDC theorize like an engineer?

If the Treasury Secretary doesn't have to pay taxes, then why do I?

by Shake on Apr 21, 2010 8:57 AM CDT reply actions   1 recs

^This

" If CB is a big hole, Dunta was the shovel."
- Rivers McCown

by MDC on Apr 21, 2010 11:12 AM CDT up reply actions  

both internet blogger dorks

/fixed

If the Treasury Secretary doesn't have to pay taxes, then why do I?

by Shake on Apr 21, 2010 11:35 AM CDT reply actions  

reply fail

such a looser

If the Treasury Secretary doesn't have to pay taxes, then why do I?

by Shake on Apr 21, 2010 11:36 AM CDT up reply actions  

get lost looser

Rudimentary creatures of flesh and blood, you touch my mind, fumbling in ignorance, incapable of understanding.

by nolander on Apr 21, 2010 12:59 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

Rec'd

for nostalgia.

"380 pounds of pure pirogi" ~ Cush

by LoneSpot on Apr 21, 2010 3:33 PM CDT up reply actions  

So is the cat dead or alive?

Sorry. Had to do it.

Great post Matt. At the end of the day though, everything depends on how good you are at judging talent.

"Well, at least our players kept their helmets on, so that showed some intelligence"-Bob McNair

by papabear on Apr 21, 2010 2:19 PM CDT reply actions   1 recs

Rec'd

For Schrodinger’s cat.

I'll eliminate you like I eliminate gluten from my diet.

by tehGrindCrusher on Apr 22, 2010 8:11 AM CDT reply actions  

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