Comcast Presents: Jacoby Jones v. Kevin Walter
by Tim on Jun 9, 2010 1:44 PM CDT
in Comcast Sponsored Posts
67 comments
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As the 2009 season began and Kevin Walter's unrestricted free agency loomed, many Texans fans (including me) figured we were seeing the last of K-Dub in steel blue, battle red, and/or liberty white. As happens all too often for my liking, I had no clue what I was talking about.
Walter battled injuries in '09, saw Owen Daniels become an even more heavily utilized option in the passing game (until OD blew out his knee), and watched Jacoby Jones finally become a factor in the passing game en route to a 27 reception/437 yard (16.2 YPC)/6 TD campaign. Free agency began, and Walter appeared bound for Baltimore. Then the Ravens acquired Anquan Boldin, and Baltimore wasn't an option anymore. Your Houston Texans came to terms with K-Dub on a five-year/$21,000,000.00 ($8,000,000.00 guaranteed) deal shortly thereafter.
There was a segment of the Texans fan base that thought giving Kevin Walter that contract was a mistake. Those folks weren't really indicting Walter as a player; the line of thinking generally went that Jacoby Jones had shown he was ready for an increased workload, and that the dollars spent on Walter could be better allocated elsewhere. Intrigued as I am by Jacoby's physical talents, I was not in that camp, as I still hyperventilate whenever I see a football heading in Jacoby's direction. Logical or not, I've been scarred by too many Jakespeare punt returns.
Nevertheless, many people smarter than me think that K-Dub's continued presence necessarily means less snaps for Jacoby Jones, which in turn negatively impacts the team and could retard Jakespeare's development. That's a valid concern, particularly considering that Jacoby is entering the final year of his rookie contract.
I'm of the mind that the Walter v. Jacoby debate may end up a non-issue. Kubes has shown he's willing to feature packages that call for three WRs, and Owen Daniels coming off that knee injury could well cause Kubes and/or Rick Dennison to get more creative with how they handle the personnel. To that end, Kevin Walter could see more time in the slot, with Jacoby splitting out wide to take advantage of his speed. Then the issue of who is WR2 or WR3 becomes almost entirely a question of semantics.
You've undoubtedly got an opinion on this, don't you? Share it in the Comments below.
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Said it on the show,
But I think when it comes to intangibles like downfield blocking etc. Walter is your guy. But just flat out game changing and gamebreaking ability, it’s Jacoby by a mile. It’s the kind of thing that makes you put up with his knuckleheadedness. I’d like to see him EARN Kevin Walters position. Meaning he finally gets his head on straight and plays up to his potential consistently.
While he muffed a lot of punts, he was pretty solid at bringing the ball down whilst playing WR.
but...
That’s cause that one mess up in Tennessee doesn’t count…..
Earl Campbell is the perfect combination of assmass and weightspeed. - Papabear
*cough*
- Rivers McCown, From Mom's Basement | Twitter
by riversmccown on Jun 10, 2010 10:56 AM CDT up reply actions
I looked at the NE game highlights a few days ago
(It’s a long offseason.) After the game, I gave Schaub my game ball, but looking at the video again, I think I probably should have given it to Jakespeare. He was amazing in that game, once he shook off the pick six that came about because he tipped the ball. He was absolutely astounding.
Personally I think it’s entirely reasonable to see both KW and JJ on the field at the same time. Our offense will much better for it.
I'll eliminate you like I eliminate gluten from my diet.
Walter /Jones - Does it matter?
Does it really matter who plays… Not one bit. AJ is the key reciever on this squad, he will always get the double and his catches as well. However, creativity in the use of the second teamers and TE’s is a far better indicator to determine the success of the passing game for the Texans this season. If the pair ( KW/JJ) are consistant in their receptions then the opponent defenses will have a loooooonnng day. The biggest key however is that the seconds can step in and be closely as effective as our starters to ensure that defenses get no rest. Combined with a 100+ yard average per game on the ground will ensure that the opponents defenses will lose the war weekly through attrition. Kubes has to decide quickly, make his cuts and be creative with the assignments of the other OTA recievers including Andre Davis, G Martinez, T Holliday, L. Crawford, T. Stross, and D. Dickerson to make it clear as to the direction we are headed in the area of pass. After all we will need to run the FA market during the preseason to assist with the other areas where the Texans need help. What do you think?
Beledat
The Astros drafted a Jacoby Jones of their own.
- Rivers McCown, From Mom's Basement | Twitter
Well...probably not for long
I mean, if this guy has any talent at all…..the ‘Stros will just make a retarded trade for some past-his-prime-douche that again depletes our farm system. It’s what we do.
If the Treasury Secretary doesn't have to pay taxes, then why do I?
Have a little faith....
I suppose if all of the stars, moons and planets align it could be possible, but what are the chances of that?
Ed Wade delendus est
Until he’s gone, we’re screwed. And Uncle Draytie, really.
A Texans fan. Really. No, I'm not kidding.
http://www.battleredblog.com
Is that astro-latin?
I am no Astro expert, but I like Ed Wade and what he is doing. I like his draft this year, from what little I could see. Astro fans have to give it time. The hole is wide and deep. Don’t expect it to turn around in one season. I think the team realizes that now.
I suppose if all of the stars, moons and planets align it could be possible, but what are the chances of that?
Sorry, BUT
Wade has been horrible. Matsui, Feliz, etc. etc. The Myers signing wasn’t bad, but the rest of his CV has been atrocious. I’m not able to keep up with the MLB draft like I used to, but from what I’ve heard, it was terrible on an epic scale.
A Texans fan. Really. No, I'm not kidding.
http://www.battleredblog.com
Those guys you mention are just temporary fillers
They weren’t meant to turn the team around in any sense. As I said, it is going to take time. This terrible season can not be blamed on Matsui and Feliz, I’m sorry. It is much more widespread than that.
I suppose if all of the stars, moons and planets align it could be possible, but what are the chances of that?
I miss the days
of larry… I mean farm to pros… Like hunt. Berkman… The ’stros when I was in jhs and hs were the team that houston could respect…. Killer bs… Pitchers… Now I look @ the yakees to a shittier level… And back in the day we had class those guys would vome into bass pro and come to my register and sign an autograph like it was no big deal. In fact because I hit a hr off of dyrkers kid I now have a 2000 autographed jersey.
"Your mother is a hamster and your father smells of elderberries! Now Go away or I shall taunt you a second time!"
Go Texans!
Bad money...
It goes all of the way back to the Carlos Lee signing. That guy has one of the worst contracts in the league. He seems like a good enough guy but his production when you look at his contract is horrible.
I would say that it doesn't matter
If Jacoby progresses enough then he’ll earn field time. The coaches will rotate the WRs outside and in so they can create mismatches.
Jacoby is an X-factor. Wherever you put him, Jacoby’s big, strong, and fast. Aside from great corners, I really can see him using his tools to push around nickel CBs and safeties.
Walter blocks well and runs good routes. There’s nothing wrong with putting him in the slot either.
The fact is that we have versatility and depth at the wide receiver position. From Andre to DA, the Texans can create a lot of mismatches. Even the Jets can’t cover us all (blocking Kris Jenkins is another story). The offense is only limited by the coaching staff.
"Lord, beer me strength."
Kevin Walter-Jacoby Jone a non-story.....
Tim, don’t you think you just blew that idea out of the water by writing this story?
Of course it was a story before last season was over, wasn’t it? It’s a story. A good story. Neither Kevin Walter nor Jacoby Jones are going to do anything to make it a non-story. They might say it’s a non-story. But their play will not say that. Kevin Walter is at his peak and Jacoby Jones is still approaching his. The nice thing is that they are on the Texans and they are just what is needed to compliment each other and the rest of the offense. It’s going to be a good story. Looking forward to it!
I suppose if all of the stars, moons and planets align it could be possible, but what are the chances of that?
Agree
I only disagree that Walter is in his prime, but he’s still a fine player. I would say he’s more a role player than a star. But he’s a damn nice player to have.
A Texans fan. Really. No, I'm not kidding.
http://www.battleredblog.com
Sure, Walter has never been a star, so if getting to star status is peaking, I guess not...
He was virtually unknown before he came to the Texans. He has never had star stats or highlight videos. He never will. He has always been a role player, because he does what is expected from him. But if doing what he does and doing it well is peaking, then he has been peaking, for him, for the last several years that he has been a Texan. I haven’t seen his game go down. He’s steady, he’s ready, and he’s heady. He makes few mistakes, if any. I don’t expect his game to go down this year. I do expect Jacoby’s game to go up, which makes him a very valuable ballplayer because he has different skills from Walter. Jacoby has more upside as far as making plays on his own and scoring.
I suppose if all of the stars, moons and planets align it could be possible, but what are the chances of that?
Yeah
There was a drop-off from 2008 to 2009. Pretty clearly. He’s 29 this year, so the upside is minimal. But, yeah, he just doesn’t make mistakes, and he’s a fantastic blocker.
A Texans fan. Really. No, I'm not kidding.
http://www.battleredblog.com
Dang! You got me there...but we are agreeing that he is a valuable contributor and he does the things that don't show up on stat sheets...
So, in some small way, I won. I just can’t prove it.
I suppose if all of the stars, moons and planets align it could be possible, but what are the chances of that?
Kevin Walter = proven, solid reciever. Best 3rd down guy on the team.
Jacoby Jones = Flashes of brilliance but a resume full of fail to this point as well.
JJ has alot more to prove to me before I find him more valuable than K-Dub.
"An open mind is like a fortress with it's gates unbarred and unguarded."
The ROSENFAIL : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CAKAKE-uq-8&feature=related
Jacoby hasn't done nearly enough yet
for him to be considered a bonafide 2nd WR on this team. Yeah, he broke out a little last year but that’s cause no one knew who he was and he got over the top of defenses with his speed. Fact is, whoever you put at WR2 is going to be productive across from Andre and with OD on the field as well. Kevin Walter has contributed to a top 5 offense 3 years running with receiving AND blocking as well as pure effort. Jacoby, on the other hand, was a knucklehead who couldn’t catch or field a punt over that same period.
I think Jacoby is a far more explosive player and would love to see him move outside on 3 wide sets with Walter moving in the slot. However, I’ll reserve my judgment as to whether he can be an every down WR until he shows it on the field.
by leacheatsbabies on Jun 9, 2010 10:34 PM CDT reply actions
honestly... And you know I'm honest cuz I have had tooo many vodka red bulls.
I love k-dub… Jakespeare is a slot till he proves he can take kevins spot… Or k-dub leaves….
"Your mother is a hamster and your father smells of elderberries! Now Go away or I shall taunt you a second time!"
Go Texans!
What about WR5?
Does anyone think that Trindon Holliday will be able to take David Anderson’s spot at WR5? Or will they both make it and TH be designated as a returner? If so Jacoby’s return skills are moot.
AKA Deputy Jason
visit Astroscounty.com for all the best Astros analysis
I think DA is solid
Dude made some crazy good catches on 3rd downs last year. I think Holliday makes it as a specialist (KR) only, or he gets cut.
Speaking of crazy catches on 3rd down....
I forget what game, when, who pretty much everything. But there was this one time where DA did a slant. Matt threw the ball in front of DA, well DA sort of dived for it. WHILE the defender was pass interfering HORRIBLY like pushing into DA. He still freaking caught it, I want to find that play cause it was a good un.
Earl Campbell is the perfect combination of assmass and weightspeed. - Papabear
Honestly
That’s the catch I was thinking of when I wrote the previous comment. It’s like the tougher the catch, the better DA is at them.
I think we can all agree on DA
On and off the field he is electric.
When he retires from football, I think he could have a second career as an entertainer. Seriously.
I suppose if all of the stars, moons and planets align it could be possible, but what are the chances of that?
Who is WR4 in your scenario?
Cause DA’s WR4 in mine.
Holliday and Dickerson fighting for 5.
Good-byes to Davis and Glenn Martinez will happen soon, with an undrafted FA going to the practice squad.
"Lord, beer me strength."
Is Apostrophe Davis gone?
He is the WR4 in my depth chart.
AKA Deputy Jason
visit Astroscounty.com for all the best Astros analysis
by txnpwrlifter on Jun 10, 2010 12:10 PM CDT up reply actions
I got the sense that he lost that job to SuperWhiteBoy
It seemed like Apostrophe was hardly ever on the field, and Anderson was pretty good as a go-to guy on third down.
I'll eliminate you like I eliminate gluten from my diet.
by tehGrindCrusher on Jun 10, 2010 1:04 PM CDT up reply actions
Yep
Apostrophe didn’t have enough hustle or grit to hold the WR4 spot.
If the Treasury Secretary doesn't have to pay taxes, then why do I?
I see what you did there
I'll eliminate you like I eliminate gluten from my diet.
by tehGrindCrusher on Jun 11, 2010 12:41 PM CDT up reply actions
If Trindon makes the team
I imagine Andre davis is goooone
Rudimentary creatures of flesh and blood, you touch my mind, fumbling in ignorance, incapable of understanding.
by nolander on Jun 10, 2010 5:13 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
How many days since the draft?
….that’s how late you are to the AD is gone party.
I suppose if all of the stars, moons and planets align it could be possible, but what are the chances of that?
I keed!
I suppose if all of the stars, moons and planets align it could be possible, but what are the chances of that?
I'm rec'n your post as a conciliatory gesture
I suppose if all of the stars, moons and planets align it could be possible, but what are the chances of that?
I don't quite get the Jones for WR#2 hype
Sure he had a decent jump in production last year, but look at Houston’s WRs from a year ago…
- Andre Johnson- 101 REC, 1,569 YDS, 66.4% ctch%, 9 TD, 9 drops
- Kevin Walter- 53 REC, 611 YDS, 77.9 ctch%, 2 TD. 1 drop
- David Anderson- 38 REC, 370 YDS, 73.1 ctch%, 0 TD, 1 drop
- Jacoby Jones- 27 REC, 437 YDS, 77.1 ctch%, 6 TD, 5 drops
Jacoby Jones had two and a half times as many drops last season than Kevin Walter and David Anderson combined while catching fewer passes than either. Yes he has “big play ability”, but in a west coast offense reliability is more important at WR than the occassional big play….
I don’t think he’s anywhere close to Walter’s level as a #2 WR and honestly I think David Anderson is a better slot reciever. Jones is best used in spots to take advantage of mismatches and to replace Andre Johnson when he needs a breather as he provides the deep threat that we’re missing when Johnson goes out.
6 TDs in only 27 Receptions
That’s why.
A threat like that on the field at all times will open up the 7-15 yard passes all day long.
If the Treasury Secretary doesn't have to pay taxes, then why do I?
So
If he plays next season with similar numbers and 2 less TDs, he’d have taken a step back?
You can’t take TDs into account for WRs much more than INTs for cornerbacks, they’re rare enough that the difference between 2 TDs and 6 during the course of a 16 game season could be purely circumstantial.
Walter has also show the ability to score touchdowns in the past, I believe the season before last he was in the top 10 for TDs by WRs or close to it. Very rarely are TDs as a statistic static for a player year to year, sometimes they have a bundle and other seasons things work out to where they get much less. It’s not an accurate indicator of ability unless you have a WR who consistently has a boatload of TDs throughout his career.
I don't believe it's the TD number
but the fact that he’s a home-run hitter. With his speed and vision in the open field, he has the ability to hit the end zone on a reverse/end-around, screen play, deep pass, or whatever. Jacoby’s an X-factor with big play ability.
I’m not full-on rooting for him to be the #2, but I do hope to see more JJ on the field because of that ability. One day? Yeah. JJ will be a starting WR. He’s got the talent and ability to do so if he puts in the work and earns his opportunity. Next year? I hope he sees the field more.
"Lord, beer me strength."
by TexansDC on Jun 10, 2010 2:24 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
What TDC said above
You are misinterpreting what I said Bryan.
It’s not that he has to score another 6 TDs in less than 30 catches. (or that “only” 4 would be a dropoff)
It’s the fact that he has the ability to score such a high TD-catch ratio. That ability alone (home-run hitter) will keep the opposing defenses just a little more on their heels (especially w/ Dre to account for also).
Having that combination of threats on the field (Dre, K-Dub, Jakespeare) should keep the defense just a half-second slower, which in turn keeps our offense moving more efficiently down the field.
If the Treasury Secretary doesn't have to pay taxes, then why do I?
Look.....over there.....a seagull
I’m not sure exactly how the drop % is valid for the argument.
Especially when you take into account that this a skill that can (and better) be improved this year (along with his blocking ability). However, Walter will not improve on his home-run ability. Ever.
So if you want that threat to keep the defense uncomfortable, then JJ has to be on the field.
If the Treasury Secretary doesn't have to pay taxes, then why do I?
Andre Davis
Also is a bigger deep threat than Walter…
I don’t really care for the “Big Play” or “Home-run” argument… Is a 6 yard catch over the middle on 3rd and 5 any less a big play than a 20 yard reception on 1st and 10? If it’s TDs that concern you, two years ago Walter had 8 TDs recieving, which I believe is more than Jones has had in his entire career so far.
Yes you do need a deep threat on the field to make the offense click, but as long as Johnson is playing we have that. When Jones and Johnson are on the field together you’re forcing Johnson to be purely a possession reciever, because Jones at this point can only really run vertical routes. If anything i’d say our offense is less diverse when Jones is on the field, unless we go 3 wide.
If anything i’d say our offense is less diverse when Jones is on the field, unless we go 3 wide.
Strange, it’s almost like I said something along these lines…
Having that combination of threats on the field (Dre, K-Dub, Jakespeare) should keep the defense just a half-second slower, which in turn keeps our offense moving more efficiently down the field.
If the Treasury Secretary doesn't have to pay taxes, then why do I?
Which doesn't really say anything
Obviously they’re all going to get playing time in the offense… I thought the question was who should be the #2 WR… And if you have one reciever who pretty much only goes long as a starting wideout over another who can do a little bit of everything well if not spectacularly, you’re probably going to lose a bit of versatility in your starting offense.
I have no idea what the answer is
But didn’t Dre drop a pretty high number of passes last year? IIRC his drop rate is kind of the elephant in the room as far as he goes.
I'll eliminate you like I eliminate gluten from my diet.
by tehGrindCrusher on Jun 11, 2010 12:42 PM CDT up reply actions
Andre Johnson had 9 drops out of 152 balls thrown at him, which is about 5.9%
Walter had 1 drop out of 58 passes, which is about 1.5%
Anderson’s 1 drop out of 52 comes out to 1.9%
Jacoby Jones had 5 drops out of 35 passes thrown his way, which means 14.3% of the time a ball was thrown in his direction he dropped it….
That’s more than double that of Johnson’s, and probably had something to do with why in spite of all the hype and his “big play ability”, Jones was thrown to less than any other reciever with major playing time.
I get people liking the occassional big play, but to totally ignore every flaw a player has because you appreciate his one strength, well it’s just kind of silly to me.
In 2008
Jones had 1 drop in just 5 passes thrown his way which, and in his rookie season he managed to not drop a pass in the 12 throws intended for him, both samples were too small to make anything of them, but for his 3 year career combined he has an 11.5% drop rate.
During those same three seasons, Walter has a 2.1% drop rate, Anderson 3.4%, and Johnson 6.3%…
I don’t think it’s much of a stretch to say Jacoby Jones is the least reliable reciever out of the four.
Also
Johnson’s numbers are a little skewed because of all the throws forced to him in coverage… Jacoby Jones only gets thrown to if he’s wide open and even then you have to hold your breath untill he comes down with it.
ONLY thrown to if he's wide open?
Really?
If the Treasury Secretary doesn't have to pay taxes, then why do I?
Yea pretty much
Congratulations you found a couple pictures with defenders in the same picture as Jones, that doesn’t change the fact that he’s not a go to reciever in the offense and so the ball doesn’t get forced in his direction. Sometimes the window will close before the ball arrives, but I can’t remember one time that Schaub threw to a double covered Jacoby Jones… Andre Johnson gets that treatment regularly, which is why is ctch% is lower than other recievers on the team even though he has as good a pair of hands as any.
I’m surprised anyone would argue against that… It seems like common sense to me.
Aren't drops factored into ctch%?
I thought they are, in which case JJ was as good as KW in catching his passes, and better than DA.
Assmass alone does not a NT make.
Catch percentage
Is simply the percent of balls caught that were thrown to the reciever…. Drops are when a player drops a catchable ball…
Some really good recievers drop alot of passes, Terrell Owens and Braylon Edwards have always been in the running to lead the league in that category. It doesn’t mean they’re not good recievers, but typically recievers who drop alot of passes are the best fit for west coast offenses, nor recievers whose only real strength at this point is the deep ball. I’m not saying Jones can’t become a good starting WR in the NFL, but unless he adds to his game he won’t do it in a west coast offense.
My new policy is
When Tim gives his opinion on what’s going to happen or who is a bad draft pick, I should just assume the opposite is in fact the truth.
But we love you Timmy!
Re: New Policy
I’ve crunched the numbers, and my calculations show that 90.8% of the time, you’ll come out ahead if you just go oppo of whatever I say or do.
It’s science.
Looking forward to a day when being a Texans fan doesn't mean that April is the highlight of my season...
That's the first time you've been right in a long time...
Maybe the jinx is broken?
I suppose if all of the stars, moons and planets align it could be possible, but what are the chances of that?
Why would you have four horses when you can only ride one at a time...
I suppose if all of the stars, moons and planets align it could be possible, but what are the chances of that?
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