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Around SBN: The Most Dangerous Division in Sports

Kubiak Konundrum -- Jacksonville Jaguars (Game 1) Edition

I have a feeling this week's Kubiak Konundrum will be known as the one with the challenges-which-shall-not-be-named. So, I'm going to start with my general thoughts on challenge theory. First, I think people tend to take most challenges in a vacuum and simply look at whether or not the referees overturned the calls, rather than taking into account the game situation. All challenges are not created equal.

Furthermore, the idea that a coach should only challenge when there is indisputable evidence, just like refs need to overturn the call, is a fallacy.  We've all seen calls overturned that we didn't expect would be.  A coach has to weigh the chances of a play being overturned (or more evidence being provided) against the statistical improvement in a game situation that an overturned call would provide--and then decide whether those chances are worth the risk. And he has to make this decision in about 20 seconds. Just because a challenge does not get overturned does not mean it wasn't worth it!

Star-divide

That being said, we set out on the Konundrum to judge the results, not our own personal beliefs. The experiment clearly has its shortcomings, as sometimes a coach can be rewarded for poor decisions and punished for good ones (Bill Barnwell at Grantland had an excellent discussion about this phenomenon there this week), much like a QB can "just win" while playing horribly (Tim Tebow, that's VY looking at you). Yet I still think there's value in stripping down our biases and judging each coaching decision based on its results, even if using a crude 1-5 scoring system. I think at the least we should consider such factors when determining just how bad a failed decision was. Enough prosthelytizing.  On to the good stuff:

1=terrible call, 2=negative, 3=neutral, 4=positive, and 5=outstanding.

1Q. 3:34 left. 3rd and 7. Jags' 36. Texans lead 7-0.
Challenge #1. Matt Schaub threw to the sideline to Kevin Walter, but the officials ruled Walter only got one foot in bounds. Watching the replay, I didn't think it was worth challenging. But Kubiak did. I saw what he did--that Walter stabbed his back foot at the ground just before going out of bounds--but I didn't think toe got turf. The refs agreed with me, and judging by the fallout, just about everyone else in Houston.

With the game situation and the fact that an overturn would have netted us a big play and maintained possession, I didn't think it was as outrageous as most. I think it's becoming clear to me that I just don't value timeouts the way others do. Some might wrap them up for Christmas and give them to their beloved, having no idea why she would be pissed at receiving something as valuable as a timeout. So, with possession on the line, I only gave Kubiak's decision a 2 on our scale. I have a feeling many are going to disagree, and so I will leave it up to our polling people to decide.

1Q. 3:34 left. 4th and 7. Jags' 36. Texans lead 7-0.
The rare instance where one play basically gives us two decisions for the price of one. Since Kubiak's challenge failed, he then was faced with the decision of what to do next on 4th and 7 from the Jags' 36. Kick a 53-yard field goal? Punt? Go for it? Well, this wasn't a game of Madden he was playing against Wade in McNair's attic, so he wasn't going to go for it.

Kubiak, of course, chose to punt. I'm beginning to question whether I should even include these 53-yard field goal or punt options in the Konundrum. I've documented my strong aversion to eschewing the field goal, but I seem to be a broken record. Also, Kubiak has advantages we don't--like seeing Neil Rackers kick before the game, having a better idea about the wind, etc. I'd love a discussion in the comments on whether we should address these seemingly once a game situations or only consider them if they are game-changing.

In this instance, Brett Hartmann induced a fair catch on the 11. With a 7-0 lead, putting an offensively challenged team on their own 11 isn't the worst thing in the world, so I give Kubes a neutral 3 on the decision.

4Q. 9:13 left. Jags' 36. Texans lead 21-7.
Ben Tate fumbles, Kubiak challenges, witty comments go up all over the Twitterverse about Kubiak's being challengedly challenged. However, this play represents what I was discussing in the opening comments even more than the first challenge. Are we really that concerned with timeouts at this point? Up 14? Had Tate held on to the ball, the run deep into Jags' territory would have pretty much iced the game or got us damn close. While I agree that Tate wasn't down, I had to super-slow-mo my DVR to make sure. Isn't the 3% chance that another angle would have provided the necessary proof worth sacrificing the timeout, which had a 1% chance of being needed, when sitting on a 14 point lead? These percentages were not provided by PFF or FO but NASA, by the way.

I can't crush Kubiak for this one because he was playing with house money, went for the death blow, and just didn't land the Hail Mary while mixing his metaphors. In short, who cares about a timeout when you have two remaining and are up by 14 in the fourth quarter against a QB who can't move the ball?

Alas, the decision was not overturned, so I will give Kubiak a 2 for the decision. But only a two.

 

A few quick notes:  Last week, people chimed in heavily in the comments to change Kubiak's decision to run a draw on third and 21 to a neutral 3 no-decision. Also, they voted overwhelmingly that Kubiak's decision to go for it on 4th and inches from the Titans' 36 was a good call. Both have been adjusted in the scorecard.

Jags Game:

2: 1 play
3: 1 play
TBD: 1 play

Season Totals:
2: 6 plays
3: 10 plays
4: 6 plays

Jaguars vs Texans coverage

Poll
Kubiak's decision to challenge whether or not Walter was out of bounds was...
1 -- Pathetic. What we've been waiting for out of Kubes.
6 votes
2 -- Not good. Not good. But it didn't kill us.
42 votes
3 -- A coin flip.
58 votes
4 -- Worth a try, just didn't work out.
110 votes

216 votes | Poll has closed

Comment 57 comments  |  3 recs  | 

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another

beautiful example. Keep doin these I love voting on Kubes decisions…

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by Taco Joe on Nov 3, 2011 8:59 PM CDT reply actions  

Even though I gave Kubiak's challenges a Vampire rating

I think I agree with you on the decision to challenge the Tate fumble. For me, the worst one was the Dreessen drop against Oakland.

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Break any of these rules sooner than say anything outright barbarous.

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by tehGrindCrusher on Nov 3, 2011 11:04 PM CDT via mobile reply actions  

I agree

Dreesen was selling it. If nothing else it was an ego stroke.

A cornucopia of wholesome goodness!

by Gerbillogic on Nov 4, 2011 8:41 AM CDT up reply actions  

Agreed

Sometimes coaches challenge a play not because they believe it will be overturned, but because their players are “battling” and it’s a show of support. As long as it’s done in a non critical situation, such as when the team is playing with a lead and wasting a time out will not be detrimental to the outcome, then it can server as a morale booster.

I'm a man!! I'm forty!!

by Hydroshock on Nov 4, 2011 9:49 AM CDT up reply actions  

Ahhhh,

The challange!

I didn't do anything wrong!.... and, I won't do it again.

by Rip Jersey on Nov 4, 2011 10:44 AM CDT up reply actions  

lol

How’s that pronounced cha – lange?

Sounds like an American made compact car. The Ford Challange.

by willieboyd on Nov 4, 2011 10:50 AM CDT up reply actions  

Yes.

I was at the game and Dreesen was going ape-shit. I believe that Dreesen actually believed he made the catch and he usually isn’t that demonstrative.

I relate it to Ausmus bitching balls and strikes versus Pence rolling his eyes at every pitch. If Ausmus said something, he was generally right.

by JMFC on Nov 4, 2011 9:39 AM CDT up reply actions  

They showed in on the TV feed too.

And I had the exact same thought, Dreesen isn’t one to throw a fit like that unless he truly believes he caught the ball.

Just my $.02
Even duct tape can't fix stupid

by txknight on Nov 4, 2011 5:33 PM CDT up reply actions  

not a challenge

I liked the first challenge. I actually thought that KW got both feet in bounds.

I hated the second one. I understand the rationale, but it was obviously a fumble. In a different game, when we aren’t stomping the guts out of someone, that time-out might be worth something else. Here – it was meaningless.

That said – Tate better hold onto the rock better this week, DAMMIT!

by Kidaster on Nov 3, 2011 11:16 PM CDT reply actions  

My view was a little different on the second

I started slow mo’ing it before the other angles came and the first angle showed it was damn close. I didn’t see it as obvious until later reviews came in. Not sure if they were in before he had to throw the flag.

by JMay on Nov 4, 2011 2:02 AM CDT up reply actions  

I think a lot of people have trouble with the idea

that you don’t have to be likely to win a challenge for it to be a good challenge. It all depends on how much winning versus losing the challenge would affect the game, and how much we value the timeout and challenge opportunity we’re giving up. Most people tend to be more conservative with them than I am. I hate people showing stats about how often coaches win challenges as if it was important to have a high percentage. I don’t want my coaches to have a high percentage, that would indicate that they’re being too conservative with their challenges and probably should be challenging more often.

by ChrisZ on Nov 3, 2011 11:27 PM CDT reply actions  

random

I have Ryan Mathews on my fantasy team, so this week I picked up Curtis Brinkley and Chris Ogbanaya b/c of Hillis’s situation. Now w/ Bradshaw’s foot, I dropped Brinkley and picked up DJ Ware. Did I make the right decision?

by wiseonekms on Nov 4, 2011 12:32 AM CDT reply actions  

^This

Being at the game, the scoreboard replays that Kubes saw made it appear that both challenges would force the calls to be overturned. I still haven’t seen definitive proof of KDUB’s foot not landing, hence the “Call on the field stands” verdict. The view of Tate’s fumble actually being a fumble weren’t played until after Kubiak challenged the call. Inside Reliant, they were both good challenges.

Blind fandom is all I got left.
"Down to clown with some other chick's lady bits" ~ MDC

by Lone Spot on Nov 4, 2011 10:59 AM CDT up reply actions  

^This

I saw what Kubiak saw, and with 73,000 fans screaming in your ear to throw the flag, I think he did the right thing, from what I saw it looked like walter was in. and with the Tate fumble it was unclear, so why not challenge?

did I type that outloud? oops.

by Chrxtopher on Nov 4, 2011 3:12 PM CDT up reply actions  

Shocked. Shocked

The voting and comments have been so positive towards the challenges so far. Twitter and talk radio, albeit obviously sensational media, made me think everyone in town thought they were slam dunk stupid decisions.

by JMay on Nov 4, 2011 2:03 AM CDT reply actions  

I was fairly neutral on the challenges within a vaccuum, but like I mentioned above, I think player loyalty is a huge component in Kubes challenges (Tate was going crazy for him to challenge his fumble, Walter seemed fairly resigned to the out of bounds call, though).

by willieboyd on Nov 4, 2011 7:48 AM CDT up reply actions  

Again I agree

It’s not always about overturning the call. Sometimes loyalty and morale have more to do with a challenge being called.

I'm a man!! I'm forty!!

by Hydroshock on Nov 4, 2011 9:56 AM CDT up reply actions  

Plus, you use a timeout and have a chance to regroup

All is not lost

I didn't do anything wrong!.... and, I won't do it again.

by Rip Jersey on Nov 4, 2011 11:06 AM CDT up reply actions  

Good point

The challenge itself acts as a timeout so to speak, so even if you lose it you still have a chance to regroup.

I'm a man!! I'm forty!!

by Hydroshock on Nov 4, 2011 11:33 AM CDT up reply actions  

The view from inside Reliant:

These were both VERY good challenges, and I agreed with both at the time and haven’t changed my mind on either. Didn’t get the calls we wanted, but the right time, place, and circumstance existed on each to be challenged. IMHO.

Blind fandom is all I got left.
"Down to clown with some other chick's lady bits" ~ MDC

by Lone Spot on Nov 4, 2011 11:02 AM CDT up reply actions  

I am sure this is true

The coaches in the booth upstairs have the TV replays

"The greatest danger in planning for tomorrow is using yesterdays logic."
Marc Kahlberg
"Some ideas are so stupid that only intellectuals believe them." - George Orwell

by Barryfromtexas on Nov 4, 2011 11:08 AM CDT up reply actions  

We keep hearing that is probably the case

Still haven’t seen definitive evidence.

Blind fandom is all I got left.
"Down to clown with some other chick's lady bits" ~ MDC

by Lone Spot on Nov 4, 2011 11:13 AM CDT up reply actions  

According to this extensive article

That is the case

Coaches’ booths also are equipped to bring in only the network feed. No recording devices are allowed, and the communicator checks both teams’ booths before each game to make sure they’re in compliance.

linky

"The greatest danger in planning for tomorrow is using yesterdays logic."
Marc Kahlberg
"Some ideas are so stupid that only intellectuals believe them." - George Orwell

by Barryfromtexas on Nov 4, 2011 11:35 AM CDT up reply actions  

Thanks.

That means that the correct angle on the Tate fumble wasn’t shown to the men in the booth until after the challenge flag was thrown?

Blind fandom is all I got left.
"Down to clown with some other chick's lady bits" ~ MDC

by Lone Spot on Nov 4, 2011 11:55 AM CDT up reply actions  

Probably

As I don’t remember the exact timing. The article is interesting in how it explains how the producer of the program is now a part of the game itself.

"The greatest danger in planning for tomorrow is using yesterdays logic."
Marc Kahlberg
"Some ideas are so stupid that only intellectuals believe them." - George Orwell

by Barryfromtexas on Nov 4, 2011 12:12 PM CDT up reply actions  

...and sure as hell should not be.

'Without change something sleeps inside us, and seldom awakens. The sleeper must awaken.' -Frank Herbert

by chuckiepoo on Nov 4, 2011 12:28 PM CDT up reply actions  

Love that guy

Blind fandom is all I got left.
"Down to clown with some other chick's lady bits" ~ MDC

by Lone Spot on Nov 4, 2011 2:24 PM CDT up reply actions  

The follow up question.

If Tate’s fumble is overturned, does he still sit for the rest of the game?

by willieboyd on Nov 4, 2011 7:49 AM CDT reply actions  

No

I'm a man!! I'm forty!!

by Hydroshock on Nov 4, 2011 9:59 AM CDT up reply actions  

I think yes.

Tate would have justifiably sat even if an overturn had occurred. Even though he wouldn’t have “technically” fumbled in that case, he still put the ball on the ground. We’ve seen this movie before with Slaton, but didn’t have a suitable backup. So, we allowed him to continue to lose/change the course of games for us.

Blind fandom is all I got left.
"Down to clown with some other chick's lady bits" ~ MDC

by Lone Spot on Nov 4, 2011 11:06 AM CDT up reply actions  

Did he break his neck? No

Then put him back out there

I didn't do anything wrong!.... and, I won't do it again.

by Rip Jersey on Nov 4, 2011 11:07 AM CDT up reply actions  

Fumbles are worse than broke necks, IMHO.

Especially when you have suitable alternatives that hold on to the ball.

Blind fandom is all I got left.
"Down to clown with some other chick's lady bits" ~ MDC

by Lone Spot on Nov 4, 2011 11:09 AM CDT up reply actions  

Especially in THAT game. Turnovers and short fields were the ONLY way JAX could get back in that game. Couldn’t risk another.

Blind fandom is all I got left.
"Down to clown with some other chick's lady bits" ~ MDC

by Lone Spot on Nov 4, 2011 11:10 AM CDT up reply actions  

To follow up my incomplete thought, we now have other backs who can carry the rock AND hold on to it. No need to risk posession just to spell him.

Blind fandom is all I got left.
"Down to clown with some other chick's lady bits" ~ MDC

by Lone Spot on Nov 4, 2011 11:08 AM CDT up reply actions  

no Kubiak even alluded to that

He said he likes the work to be split then he said but different factors dictated the workloads and he mentioned the fumble as one of the factors

by jags52982 on Nov 4, 2011 11:04 AM CDT up reply actions  

I thought over all Kubes did a good job.

I would have done both challenges at the time. After seeing replays over and over – maybe not – but at the time- I thought it was a good move given the over all situation.

I have said my views of punting between the opponent’s 35-45. I don’t ever see a circumstance to do that. Most NFL coaches disagree with me which means I am probably wrong on my philosophy.

Like I said – over all Kubes did well.

"The greatest danger in planning for tomorrow is using yesterdays logic."
Marc Kahlberg
"Some ideas are so stupid that only intellectuals believe them." - George Orwell

by Barryfromtexas on Nov 4, 2011 9:12 AM CDT reply actions  

Yes, this might have been the best managed game of Kubiak's career

This is coming from someone who has criticized Kubiak in the past, but maybe he is learning.

I didn't do anything wrong!.... and, I won't do it again.

by Rip Jersey on Nov 4, 2011 9:14 AM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

^This

Blind fandom is all I got left.
"Down to clown with some other chick's lady bits" ~ MDC

by Lone Spot on Nov 4, 2011 11:11 AM CDT up reply actions  

Agreed.

Just my $.02
Even duct tape can't fix stupid

by txknight on Nov 4, 2011 5:36 PM CDT up reply actions  

Earlier

I love reading these, but on Friday? Last Sunday’s game is almost all but forgotten in the excitement for this weeks game.

The Texan Floater, you wanna flush it but you can't.
"Wade aid has lean in it, just saying"
Whitest Front Seven in Football.

by WreckNTexan on Nov 4, 2011 9:23 AM CDT reply actions  

maybe not all forgotten
Nov 27th is coming, baby. You’ve been warned.
BCC fan

The Texan Floater, you wanna flush it but you can't.
"Wade aid has lean in it, just saying"
Whitest Front Seven in Football.

by WreckNTexan on Nov 4, 2011 9:31 AM CDT up reply actions  

I was OK with both

Walter’s was clearly close enough to review and would have been a huge play. I thought the Tate fumble was clearly a fumble, but he was somewhat horizontal when it came out so maybe a knee is on the ground? Plus it’s a timeout that you would have taken into the locker room anyway.

My only issue is that I would like to be more conservative with my second and possibly last review chance of the day.

by JMFC on Nov 4, 2011 9:48 AM CDT reply actions  

Hated the challenge on the Walter catch, there was just no way it'd be overturned.

At that point in the game I didn’t think it was worth the timeout and embarrassment. On the Tate fumble, it was well worth a shot considering the results between the call standing and being overturned.

What is Kube’s all-time record in challenges? I don’t recall him winning a single one this season.

by jkcheng122 on Nov 4, 2011 9:56 AM CDT reply actions  

ebarrassment?

Not sure who would be embarrassed and why.

I'm a man!! I'm forty!!

by Hydroshock on Nov 4, 2011 10:28 AM CDT up reply actions  

Honestly

I really don’t think Kubiak (or any other coach for that matter) gives a crap what the fans think about his challenges.

I'm a man!! I'm forty!!

by Hydroshock on Nov 4, 2011 11:36 AM CDT up reply actions  

Initially i thought it wasn't a catch

but then they showed the replay and i thought he did get both feet in bounds i think it ended up being a case of not enough evidence to overturn the call these situations aren’t innocent til proven guilty if the play had been ruled a catch initially then i don’t think the replay would have enough evidence to overturn

by jags52982 on Nov 4, 2011 11:09 AM CDT up reply actions  

On games won

Does it really matter if he goes full retard on challenges??? A W is always a W! Unless u r Brian Cushing and ur being voted DROY, in that case a W is 2 W’s…lol

by SMITHILLIAK on Nov 4, 2011 12:09 PM CDT via mobile reply actions   1 recs

+1

Would have been +2 if I could rec it twice

"The greatest danger in planning for tomorrow is using yesterdays logic."
Marc Kahlberg
"Some ideas are so stupid that only intellectuals believe them." - George Orwell

by Barryfromtexas on Nov 4, 2011 12:13 PM CDT up reply actions  

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