Mario Williams
by Jake Edmisten on Dec 29, 2011 3:14 PM CST
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PrintDenver fan here, on another forum we are having an argument about what will happen to him after the season. I was hoping actual fans of the team could give us an answer.
Do you think the Texans F.O. will let him walk with the emergence of Connor Barwin and Brooks Reed?
Will they Franchise Tag him at the more discounted linebacker position?
Will they do a sign and trade type deal?
Any response is appreciated. Thank you and God Bless!
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I think the general consensus is we want him back.
From what I have heard franchise tagging is practically impossible because the price will be way too high.
I think then only possible options are tagging and immediately trading or just signing a long term contract. It will take a lot of moving around money though.
.................
No one will trade for him
His contract expires in March, it isn’t worth anything.
How about I Punch-a-size your face for free! - Rod Farva
by distant_texans_fan on Dec 29, 2011 5:09 PM CST up reply actions
His position doesn't matter for the tag, because the 120% is above either (OLB or DE) threshold. That 120% increase would make the franchise tag impossible.
I’m not sure I have all the details right, there’s a post around here somewhere about it.
I just remember we either sign him long-term or let him walk basically. Consensus around here seems to be sign him.
http://www.battleredblog.com/2011/12/21/2653157/mario-williams-and-the-franchise-tag
He’ll be too expensive to tag
His tag number will be around $16.5M, because he’ll get 120% of his last year’s salary since the average of the top 5 at his position is lower than his last year’s base pay
by The Night Owl on Dec 21, 2011 5:41 PM CST
From the ESPN article that's linked in the post above.
I now interrupt this post to correct myself and make the rest of it an example of what could happen in another situation like Williams’ instead of his situation itself. As gbrussell points out below, a secondary provision of the franchise tag is that if it’s not more than 120 percent of a player’s previous salary, he gets that number instead. Williams has a $13.8 million salary in 2011. So his franchise 2012 tag number would be $16.56 million. That’s prohibitive. A long-term deal would come with a much lower 2012 number. The Texans have to give him a deal or let him go. Back to a scenario that would play out if Williams had a reasonable number this season.
I think he would be
receptive to a deal that would pay him less up front, he has to know that the Texans defense has the potential to be really special if he can stay healthy. In the end it will come down to whether he wants to be in the best system or if he only cares about getting every cent he can possibly make.
by Bobbythegreat on Dec 29, 2011 4:01 PM CST up reply actions
the fan in me
wants him to want to be in the best system and give us the home town discount, but I find that extremely unlikely.
What are we doing this off-season, free agency then draft, like normal, right? I think he may walk if he doesn’t give us the discount.
TJ must throw 30 times for us to win.
and I say that
because if I’m Rick Smith, I give Foster the bank. He’s special, even with Tate back there.
TJ must throw 30 times for us to win.
Agreed.
Also, isn’t Chris Myers a free agent? I’d throw him money before Foster, even.
Then of course, you have to deal with the whole problem of actually having drafted well recently… Duane Brown next year (absolutely vital), Cushing (absolutely vital), Barwin (just a notch below Mario as a pass rusher, and probably much cheaper), and Quin.
Can’t afford to tie up too much of our cap room in one player.
without knowing the numbers
I think Myers should be affordable, and Foster is a must. If that doesn’t leave room for Mario, then I guess that’ll have to be the way to go. I won’t like it, but if you ask me which 2 out of those three, that’s my order.
TJ must throw 30 times for us to win.
It's a lose-lose situation, in my opinion.
You either get nothing for him (a 3rd-round compensatory pick is best-case scenario), or you’re tied up with a hefty contract due to an injury prone player whose presence makes both Connor Barwin and Brooks Reed less valuable.
Don’t get me wrong, no sane Texans fan will tell you that Mario isn’t a considerable upgrade over Brooks Reed (though the extent to which he’s an upgrade over Barwin at WOLB is up for debate). But you don’t draft a guy early in the second round for depth. And if it doesn’t make financial sense to franchise Mario (which it doesn’t), then you can’t treat him any differently than any other teams’ free agents. In other words, assess your team needs and try address them in a cost-effective manner. Mario fits neither the “need” nor the “cost effective” category.
Long story short, I’m guessing he’s not a Texan after this season. And let’s hope to Durga that the Titans and Jags don’t have cap room (or the Pats and Jets, for that matter). We need that monster out of the conference, preferably on some sort of NFC West basement dweller.
If they let him walk then they've made the worst possible decision
Franchise could happen….and it’s the most likely scenario, in my mind.
Ideally, they resign him long-term…..move him to DE…..kick Antonio Smith inside to NT (maybe restructure his deal with an extension or something)……start Reed and Barwin……cut Ryans (big savings) and draft Tank Carder (3rd round) along with another young OLB……..and I would love that front seven so much.
"Lord, beer me strength."
Antontio Smith at NT... Eep.
He’s pretty horrendous against the run playing on the outside as it is (PFF has him as their lowest-rated 3-4 DE run defender). That’s a frightening prospect.
Not to mention, you’re giving Mario another position change and paying him $3-4 million more per year than even the best 3-4 DEs in the league receive.
Smith didn't want to play 3-4 end
Said he was too small. I doubt he would stay here at NT. IIRC he came here from Arizona to get away from a 3-4. Maybe given his success earlier this year, he is more ready to listen to Wade’s ideas for him, but I’m just speculating.
Damn you vile woman, you've impeded my work since the day I escaped your vile womb ...
6.5 sacks for the season (his new career high) says he won't mind anymore
At least not in Wade’s system
Murphy’s 20th Military Law:
If it’s stupid, but it works, it ain’t stupid
"Fuck em all. Go Texans."
by The Night Owl on Jan 1, 2012 8:38 PM CST up reply actions
Franchise can still happen?
Can we absorb the $16 million hit next year?
No way, not without sacrificing other players like Foster, Myers, Allen, & Dreesen
Murphy’s 20th Military Law:
If it’s stupid, but it works, it ain’t stupid
"Fuck em all. Go Texans."
by The Night Owl on Jan 1, 2012 8:29 PM CST up reply actions
Watt wins his one on ones a lot
I like this idea. The pressure in the QBs face would be good, and the batted balls should increase also.
TJ must throw 30 times for us to win.
He is a ball swatter for sure...
'Without change something sleeps inside us, and seldom awakens. The sleeper must awaken.' -Frank Herbert
I don't have any hope that Mario is with the Texans next season.
This will be his last contract, so I expect he will look to be paid above any allegiance to the Texans. Money talks louder than anything else. Someone will pay him. I don’t think the Texans will pay him.
"All our lives we're taught to get in line. The ones who conform never discover." - Undrafted Free Agent and NFL Rushing Leader Arian Foster
They paid Andre, I'm sure they'll pay Mario, as long as they can fit him under the cap
Murphy’s 20th Military Law:
If it’s stupid, but it works, it ain’t stupid
"Fuck em all. Go Texans."
by The Night Owl on Jan 1, 2012 8:40 PM CST up reply actions
Charley Casserly?
A Texans fan. Really. No, I'm not kidding.
http://www.battleredblog.com
"Blind fandom is all I got left." - LoneSpot
What I mean is
Rick Smith will get it done. I trust his decision making and ability to get our important players re-signed even when it is much easier said than done.
Dom Capers?
Bring back Aaron Brooks! He's the only one who can save us from the evil that is Drew Brees!!
Dallas’ misery will always be my delight
-TexansDC
Reed and barwin together still aren't as good a pass rushing duo as Mario would have been this year.
He’s far more athletic then either of them and was going to hit 15+ sacks at his rate. He was a bigger Damarcus Ware who was just getting adjusted to OLB.
I find it hard to believe the Texans will be able to get him long term but I definitely think they’ll hit him with the Franchise tag when it’s all said and done. He’s one of the guys we need to get the defense from very good to great. Until at least we get another talent of similar ability. Perhaps Brooks Reed will develop into that but he’s not going to physically dominate from that spot the way Mario could and it’s easier to block him with a TE than Mario.
Besides that. You can NEVER have to many good pass rushers. A rotation of Barwin,Reed, and Mario would be about as good as we could get it and would be worth the cost of a franchise tag for the 2012 season.
Prediction: 11-5 AFC South champions.
Not to nitpick....
But Barwin is more athletic in nearly every regard. Mario has size and upper body strength; Barwin has speed and every single agility metric. Furthermore, had Barwin played WOLB for the entire season, he very well might have reached 15 sacks as well.
I’m not particularly high on Brooks Reed, but the real comparison here is Mario vs. Barwin (who took over at WOLB midway through the season). Barwin was considered a natural fit in a 3-4 coming out of college, and in his first full season as a starter, he’s proving that to be true. The difference in talent just hardly seems worth the $ difference.
by Nashmeister on Dec 29, 2011 11:20 PM CST up reply actions
I disagree with this
Here are the combines for each:
Conner Barwin:
Height: 6035
Weight: 256
40 Yrd Dash: 4.59
20 Yrd Dash: 2.68
10 Yrd Dash: 1.53
225 Lb. Bench Reps: 21
Vertical Jump: 40 1/2
Broad Jump: 10’08"
20 Yrd Shuttle: 4.18
3-Cone Drill: 6.87
Mario Williams:
Height: 6070
Weight: 295
40 Yrd Dash: 4.70
20 Yrd Dash: 2.77
10 Yrd Dash: 1.60
225 Lb. Bench Reps: 35
Vertical Jump: 40 1/2
Broad Jump: 10’00"
20 Yrd Shuttle: 4.37
3-Cone Drill: 7.21
while it is true that Barwin does “test higher” remember this:
Barwin tested at 6-5, 256lbs
Mario tested at 6-7, 295…. or 40 lbs heavier and two inches taller…..
However I would sat that I agree with TDC… Mario has the perfect skillset to excell at the DE/NT position in Wades Defense…
If you notice that Barwin has a much better 3-cone drill, which is the most accurate test, for “turning the corner”. In fact Barwin matches Demarcus Ware, you know that Guy that is considered the best 3-4 WOLB in the league, in that test.
Like I said during this past Offseason If I was the DC here would be my starting lineup:
ROLB-Barwin
RDE-Watt
RILB- Cushing
NT- Williams
LILB- Ryans
LDE- Smith
LOLB- Reed
This gives you the best Pass Rushing 3-4 Line in the league IMO…..
Here’s a theoretical play from 2010: Snap. Tony takes 7 step drop. Tony looks left at Miles, who is doubled, and looks right to where Roy Williams should be…but instead sees Colombo on his back and a Defensive End foaming at the mouth jumping over Marc’s carcass. Tony proceeds to run like hell and look for Witten
-by CotySaxman on Jul 11, 2011 7:50 AM PDT
Now, if somebody doesn’t agree with that, that’s cool. I also don’t agree with the fact that I don’t have $10 million in my bank account. But the fact that I don’t agree with it doesn’t make it any less true.
by One.Cool.Customer on Dec 23, 2010 12:00 AM PST
by I am Ironman!!! on Dec 31, 2011 9:53 AM CST up reply actions
Williams is never going to play NT
Never
I'm a man!! I'm forty!!
by Hydroshock on Dec 31, 2011 12:14 PM CST via Android app up reply actions
Fair point on the size...
Though being bigger at the OLB position isn’t necessarily a good thing. Being able to get your shoulder low and take a sharp angle around the edge is probably more desirable if you’re going to play the role of a speedy edge-rusher. Mario’s size makes him easier to get a clean block on (although obviously his strength is a nice asset). And despite being taller, I have a hard time imagining that Mario would have tipped more passes at the line than Barwin this season, seeing as he leads all 3-4 OLBs in that category.
I’d love to have him at DE where he could use his length to manhandle OTs. I just don’t think the price is right.
by Nashmeister on Dec 31, 2011 12:15 PM CST up reply actions
Agreed on Barwin being more athletic
Could Mario play TE? Seriously doubt it.
I'm a man!! I'm forty!!
by Hydroshock on Dec 31, 2011 12:11 PM CST via Android app up reply actions
Franchise tag cost is $16.5M for Mario
ALL of that counts against the cap. We won’t tag him unless we have a deal in place and are just ironing out details.
I think they will tag him and work on a deal after 2012
given he stays healthy. If he gets hurt again, that will be three straight years he didn’t finish the year and I can’t see giving him headliner money. Some 4-3 team will pay him stupid money. Probably Indy just to make me hate my life.
Fact is, no team is static. Winning teams always get picked dry and good players can go where they want, be it to get paid or to win. Thats why the Pats in the 2000’s were so impressive with what they accomplished.
Damn you vile woman, you've impeded my work since the day I escaped your vile womb ...
They will have to negotiate the tag value
OLB this season and DE in previous seasons. The tag value should be somewhere in between
"All our lives we're taught to get in line. The ones who conform never discover." - Undrafted Free Agent and NFL Rushing Leader Arian Foster
He will get a Peppers deal elsewhere
It doesn’t make much business sense for him to be here next year. We have talent behind him at the position, we are tight up against the cap, and he would rather play in a 4-3. I think he goes to the highest bidder in FA.
I wish we could hire coaches without "having grown up in Houston" being a job requirement.
Yep, it makes no (business) sense for him not to pursue that.
This is probably his last contract. He has to go for it. No one can blame him. I said somewhere up there that the tag value is negotiable, and I think that is true. Even if he opts to negotiate that and stay here one more year with a one-year franchise option, he is faced with the same situation next year. At his age and with his precarious grip on good health, I would try to find a long-term contract with a big signing bonus now.
"All our lives we're taught to get in line. The ones who conform never discover." - Undrafted Free Agent and NFL Rushing Leader Arian Foster
I thought it was a given that the franchise wasn't an option, but I've never seen any numbers.
I don’t know much about the cap, so can someone help?
Tag = $16 million next year
Peppers type contract = ??? next year
Where are we at now with the cap?
How can we free up some money next year?
Everything about Mario says he wants to stay in Houston.
His public statements, his body language, the way he looks so involved on the sidelines.
Trouble is, he’ll be too expensive to franchise. There is a chance he would take a hometown deal to stay, but it’s remote. When he (and his agent) see the money that will be out there for him, he will be gone—and you can’t blame him.
It’s just a damned shame he didn’t get to have one last, great year with the Texans.
hometown deals
There is no such thing for prime players at the peak of their careers. They are looking for long term financial security. Hometown deals only apply to players past their prime that are looking for one last run before retirement.
Make no mistake. If Mario can get elite DE dollars he and his agent want from another legitimate contender, he will walk.
I'm a man!! I'm forty!!
mario is going nowhere
Guys, Mario will be back next season. We will franchise him, then sign him in the same year to get the cap number down if a long term deal isn’t reached soon. He wont command peppers type money, because he hasnt had a peppers like season in 3 years. His injury past will help us to keep him. the fact that he got injured might be a blessing in disguise because it keeps his price down. The bottom line is that the front office would be silly to let one of the nfl’s most electric pass rushers go. He might have had 20 sacks if he stayed healthy. We need quality depth, as this year has shown us. He will be back.
by drummercve on Dec 31, 2011 6:45 PM CST reply actions 2 recs
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