Trading Up or Down: How Much Do The Texans Like Second Round Picks?
It is now 45 days and counting until the 2011 NFL Draft. The speculation of teams’ selections will begin to reach a fevered pitch shortly before April 28th. Whenever an article or poll on the draft is posted you will invariably see one preferred choice over and over, and it’s not a player. It's "trade down." I think we as casual fans underestimate the complexity of this option.
There are several factors that a general manager has to consider when deciding whether to trade draft selections with someone. One is whether there is anyone that desires the team’s draft slot, which in my opinion is an aspect that fans often take for granted. If you force a trade down, it is difficult to get market value for the slot you’re leaving. Also, the GM has to determine whether the compensation for the move and the players projected to be available at the new slot are worth leaving the original pick.
Sometimes there is a reason to move up. While this practice is usually reserved for a team with fewer holes on the roster and therefore less need for draft picks, occasionally there is a player that is believed to be such a difference-maker that a team feels it is necessary to move up to select him. This is a difficult task, because as you’re already using valuable draft picks to get your guy, you don’t want to pull the trigger too early or overpay for the move.
So how feasible and likely is it that the Texans will move draft spots this season? Additionally, what would the implications be on the rest of the draft if these moves were executed?
No matter how you feel about the competence of Rick Smith, I think it’s safe to say that he is aware that the possibility of trading draft picks exists. After all, 2009 is the only draft that Smith was in charge of that the Texans did not trade back in either the first or second round. Matt Schaub, Steve Slaton, Darryl Sharpton and Sherrick McManis were all extra players acquired from these trades executed by Smith. For all the flack that he has taken recently from Texans fans, he has shown adeptness at acquiring extra picks if there is a deal to be made.
This year may be a prime opportunity to make such a deal in the first round. The four positions of greatest need for the Texans, in no particular order, are nose tackle, cornerback, safety and outside linebacker. Opinions vary, but there very well might not be anyone at those positions worth selecting at 11. So for conversation's sake, let’s assume not only that is true, but also that Smith and the Texans don’t simply want to take best player available at a position outside the four areas previously listed. This might be the time to think trade.
The guideline for trade selection worth has always been this famous chart. It’s worth noting that this draft may have different values attached. A rookie wage scale, which was one of the agreed aspects of the proposed (yet not executed) new collective bargaining agreement, might make top picks more valuable, the reason being that the only downside of top picks prior to a wage scale was that a player selected in the top 10 would be awarded a contract that was astronomical. Now that everyone is fairly certain that rookie salaries will be at least somewhat reasonable, teams might consider the picks more valuable. Until shown that it is not valid, however, the established trade selection chart will have to suffice.
In my opinion, a trade down would be worth it if it garnered an extra second rounder. For Smith to pick up an extra second round pick, he’d probably have to look for a team to trade with somewhere below 20. There are several teams that might be eyeing an offensive tackle that would like to move up and get their guy before the Lions are on the clock. Also, while it might break the hearts of Julio Jones advocates, many teams might see #11 as a prime spot to get the Alabama wideout before the Rams grab him. Lastly, quarterbacks are always the draft wild card and there may be someone that wants to jump Minnesota to get their guy for the future. If the Texans found themselves in the 20s, they could find a player they were possibly considering at 11, like Justin Houston or Aldon Smith, and have an extra pick in the second. They might also choose a player they thought wasn’t a good value at 11, like Phil Taylor, Jabaal Sheard or Stephen Paea, knowing that they have an additional second rounder to fill another hole on the roster. Again though, Rick would have to find someone willing to move up.
There’s also the crazy notion of moving up for a player. When John McClain suggested trading up for Von Miller, he was killed for it. Granted, that was probably criticized more for his thought that a move like that would cost less than a second round pick, which is exactly what it would take, at a minimum. As was stated before, moving up is usually a luxury reserved for a team without many holes to fill. Although it is completely outside of their drafting M.O., Smith and Kubiak might feel inclined to snag a player that can step in and immediately provide such an upgrade in a position of need that it might be worth a second rounder.
In my opinion, there is a variable that no one is discussing in terms of the Texans draft strategy. Gary Kubiak and Rick Smith know how close they came to losing their jobs. In reality, the current labor unrest might be the one thing that kept Bob McNair from completely rebuilding. McNair is among the group of owners with considerable debt because of what the franchise cost him and the stadium that he built. He likely did not want to pay Kubiak’s salary if he was fired, on top of dealing with the debt issue in the event games are missed next season.
This is why I think there is very little chance that the Texans draft Julio Jones. While that makes sense if you believe he is the best player available at your pick (which I am inclined to believe if everything shakes out reasonably close to what is expected), drafting a wide receiver to develop alongside Andre Johnson is smart as a long-term goal of the football team. Yet I believe Kubiak and Smith want to win games next year in order to keep their jobs, and then worry about successive seasons. That means upgrade the defense to at least average in a hurry. It likely won’t make Texans fans happy because it’s not in the team’s long-term interest to acquire talent that way, but it is in Kubiak and Smith’s best interest if they feel 2011 is their last chance.
This phenomenon could mean a new draft strategy that we haven’t seen from this current office. Part of that strategy may mean trading up. If Wade Phillips tells Kubiak and Smith that Player X can immediately make the defense improve drastically to the point he is worth not only our first round pick but also our second, they very well might listen. If you consult the chart, the highest the Texans could reasonably move up without giving up more than their second-rounder is to 6th overall. This range would make sense because it would leapfrog San Francisco, Tennessee and Dallas, all of whom have some similar interests.
I am not advocating trading up; I feel it is shortsighted. I am merely pointing out that it is feasible that it could happen. This year’s draft for the Texans could look totally different than what we are used to seeing because of a shift in expectations and decision-making at the top.
Even though I would prefer the trade down option to trading up, there are three players that I would want to see as targets if they decided they couldn’t live without them. If Von Miller, Patrick Peterson or Marcell Dareus happened to fall to the 6-9 range and a deal could be made to get them, I definitely wouldn’t rake the front office over the coals for making such a deal. All three bring a unique skill set to Wade's defense that requires less development necessary and therefore more immediate impact for 2011. I would still much rather see three players selected in the first 64 picks than just one, though.
It just comes down to how much Rick Smith and company like the players in the bottom of the top 10, at 11, in the 20s and in the second round. What’s your take? Weigh in with not only if you would prefer to trade spots or stay put, but also who the targets would be in the case the Texans moved up or down.
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I want them to trade up but don't think that they will.
Since this might the last year for Smithiak, Smith will fight the urge to trade down and stay put. My bet is that they draft a OLB like Quinn in the first and a DB like Moore in the second and pray that they sign a CB1 FA.
I would be surprised if they draft a NT in the first or second. I think they will go with what they got. Next year might be a different story.
An extra 2nd round pick could help this year
its not like we are trading fro future picks
These hands will always be rough
Only 2 players worth trading up for
Dareus or PP
Von I’m not sold on
I wouldnt trade up, id grab cam Jordan in round one, Moore in rd 2, Carmichael CB in rd 3
That’s better than getting only Von and one other player in the first three rounds
by AllenOU on Mar 15, 2011 12:49 PM CDT via mobile reply actions
Is there a Big 12 player you DO like?? Jeez!
BTW, sat right next to Rhett Bomar the other day at lunch in dallas.
Bacon tastes good... Pork chops taste good.
Is he still in the car business?
A Texans fan. Really. No, I'm not kidding.
http://www.battleredblog.com
"Blind fandom is all I got left." - LoneSpot
by bigfatdrunk on Mar 15, 2011 3:48 PM CDT up reply actions 4 recs
Didn't ask.
He was in the eating awesome Mexican food business is all I got from it. And I was in the same.
Bacon tastes good... Pork chops taste good.
I disagree on Von. He can run in coverage and he can rush the passer.
He is exactly what we need on the defensive side of the ball from the perspective of outside linebacker. With Barwin and Miller coming off the ends, we could go from no pass rush, to a very significant pass rush overnight.
If the quarterback is scrambling, he will be less capable of destroying our secondary.
Pressure on the QB is, in my opinion, the number one issue that needs to be addressed. Coverage issues will get better from there.
Without pressure on a qb even I could throw a completion to Andre Johnson.
"An open mind is like a fortress with it's gates unbarred and unguarded."
What happens when an unstoppable force meets three defensive players? THIS: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gpWqMqrZwTU
by TexansForever on Mar 15, 2011 4:12 PM CDT up reply actions
Not saying he won't be good
I’m just not sold on him being a flat out superstar right away. I would be happy to have him, but not worth trading up for IMO
As far as big 12 players on defense, I don’t like a ton of them.
Q Carter is OK, as is Aldon smith.
I do like Curtis brown and sam acho believe it or not. Acho might make a pretty good OLB, and also Aaron Williams could be an impact FS
by AllenOU on Mar 15, 2011 5:02 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
Unless they nab Peterson
I’m anti-trade up.
That said, I’d love to see them trade down, pick up an extra 2 (and/or 3, 4, 5) and take Illinois ILB Martez Wilson.
"Lord, beer me strength."
Wilson can play inside or outside (strong-side)
I’d probably play Wilson outside….but he could slide inside if Cushing/Ryans struggle.
"Lord, beer me strength."
I'm against trading up
I am intersted to see how any potential rookie salary cap affects trades though. Teams aren’t going to be as likely to want to to get out of those toe 5 spots, but they could find more willing trade partners. It will be interesting to see if it leads to more movement than in the past.
"Well, at least our players kept their helmets on, so that showed some intelligence"-Bob McNair
We just have too many holes to fill
to justify trading up in my mind. And although I would love to have Julio Jones, if he were available at 11, if it were my decision, I would try to the rights to him for additional picks.
On a side note, I think the Texans are considering starting two free safety types rather than a SS/FS combination. This would provide better deep support and help the young cornerbacks by allowing them to gamble more and take more shallow drops. In turn the line could have more time to get to the quarterback and/or open up more blitzing combinations. Therefore I anticipate them taking several FS’s in the draft or else moving Quin to FS if there are better opportunities to draft cb’s. It would also [and this makes me shudder] lessen their need to sign a free agent corner.
Trading up and back
"the Texans don’t simply want to take best player available at a position outside the four areas previously listed. "
This mindset is the reason the Texans have average and ordinary drafts. Average and ordinary drafts make for average and ordinary teams. If you do not take the BPA then you’re destined to have an average and ordinary team.
The two players who could be available at #11 that would likely create the most interest in teams trading up are Julio Jones and Cameron Jordan. The Rams at #14 could use their 3rd RD pick #78 to move up to #11to draft Jones. The Pats at #17 would need to package their second 2nd RD pick #60 to move up to #11 to draft Jordan.
If Patrick Peterson were to drop, the Texans could package their 3rd RD pick #73 with #11 to move up to #8. Or package their 2nd RD pick #42 with #11 and move up to #5. If the Texans find themselves picking in the 20’s then they should pick up at a minimum of 2 2nd RD picks or a 2nd RD and a 2012 1st RD.
Kubiak has commented (see transcript houstontexans.com) that they will prepare for the draft as usual but they have made big commitments to Wade. Look for Wade to control the first part of the draft. In this draft trading back makes sense because this is the deepest draft RDs 1-3 in many years. There are several players who could contribute early in RDs 2 and 3.
My preference would be for the Texans to trade back with either N.E. #17 or SD #18 and select Ryan Kerrigan. With (2) 2nd RD picks I like Christain Ballard and Tyler Sash. At #11 for the Texans, Cameron Jordan is the likely BPA.
by Larry House on Mar 15, 2011 2:01 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
In the salary cap era it is always going to be a mixture of BPA and need
BPA is a great idea, and with unlimited salary cap space (and unlimited budget) it would be the way to go. BPA should take precedent, but you can’t remove need from the equation. The fact is it is it’s hard enough trying to decide between two closely rated players at the same position. Look at Charles Rogers and Andre Johnosn. There was legitimate debate over who was the better prospect as laughable as it may seem now. Trying to make choice between two guys at different positions with vastly different skill sets if they have graded out close to the same is almost impossible. What you have to avoid is that your needs don’t artificially inflate the way you rate players just because they are a fit.
Good teams have the luxury of taking BPA because good teams don’t have as many glaring holes as the rest of the league. What I’m saying is great teams often take BPA because they are great, not becaues they take BPA. The fact is there is no black and white answer to the need vs. BPA debate. Every situation is different.
"Well, at least our players kept their helmets on, so that showed some intelligence"-Bob McNair
by papabear on Mar 15, 2011 2:52 PM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
Welcome, Larry!
I’m also interested in what we receive as compensation for the Dunta signing. Historically under this regime, we’ve had no problem trading back in both the 1st AND 2nd rounds….but we’ve also moved up in the 2nd. I think the FO’s ability to be flexible is helpful.
A Texans fan. Really. No, I'm not kidding.
http://www.battleredblog.com
"Blind fandom is all I got left." - LoneSpot
Why do I get the feeling...
… that this years NFL draft is being held hostage by Kubiak and Smith’s personal interests as opposed to the interest of the franchise? I can’t imagine that there won’t be at least a slight push back from people who have job security and feel that trading up could prove to be detrimental to the Texans. Albeit, not too many of those people (job secured) exist aside from McNair. This draft cannot be looked at as a “let me cover my @$$” draft. We need to build a foundation for our teams future and trading up in the draft at the expense of our other draft picks won’t get the job done.. At least not permanently. I agree that we need to win NOW but there is just too much unpredictability in this uncertain world to invest that much responsibility onto a kid in his early 20’s.. GO TEXANS!!
Kubiak's draft comments
FWIW see Kubiak’s comments concerning the draft he made at the combine (see HoustonTexans.com). Kubiak said they will plan for the draft as usual but they did make some big commitments to Wade. Extrapolating from those comments I’m guessing Wade has full control of the first part of the draft. Wade has made comments on different occasions that he prides himself on player evaluation.
New England Patriots
The Pats have the 17th and 28th picks in the first round, and the 33rd and 60th picks as well (1st and 28th of the 2nd round). Per the draft pick trade value chart, our 11th pick is worth EXACTLY the same as the combination of NE’s 17th and 60th picks (1250). The combination of their 28th and 33rd picks are almost identical to our #11 too (1240).
Brady & Co. NEED a top flight receiver, a la Julio Jones. Belichick knows that as good as Brady was last season with the mediocre WR corps they fielded last year, he can still be other-worldly with a great WR corps. Deion Branch is a band-aid, Welker is a slot guy, and Tate is not #1 material, though he is good (a stretch-the-field #2). I think Belichick would definitely consider making a trade with Houston if Jones is still on the board at our pick.
In a draft so ridiculously deep with defensive talent, I like both of the NE trade scenarios, and would even contend we should grab their 28th and 33rd picks as the first best option since some 1st round talents will likely be available into Round 2.
3rd scenario would have us send our 1st, 2nd, and 3rd round picks to NE (11,40,73) for their 17th, 33rd, 60th, and 92nd picks. The trade value we’d be giving them is 1975, we’d get from them 1962 in value. The reason for doing this deal is that it’s a small drop in the 1st round (Phil Taylor, Cameron Jordan, Justin Houston?), and we’d also get a pick at the top and bottom of the 2nd (the top 2nd pick is basically another 1st round, a lot of DB or OLB talent likely still on the board), then a pick at the back of the 3rd (I prioritize 2nd round talent MUCH more highly than 3rd round talent in this draft given its defensive depth).
AllenOU
and I have been saying this for a while. Seem like a perfect trading mate.
A Texans fan. Really. No, I'm not kidding.
http://www.battleredblog.com
"Blind fandom is all I got left." - LoneSpot
Kudos to y'all then, I need to pay more attention!
Of the 3 scenarios I listed, which would you pick? Or, if there’s another scenario you have in mind with them that’s even better, share!
Don't care :-)
I’d just like to collect more talent. When you read things like Dale’s below, you can see why it makes even more sense to do so.
A Texans fan. Really. No, I'm not kidding.
http://www.battleredblog.com
"Blind fandom is all I got left." - LoneSpot
I think so.
But it was probably after they’d already traded down, so it throws you off.
Bacon tastes good... Pork chops taste good.
Has cheat ever gone for it on 4th down in his own territory while playing P8un?
He does what he thinks he needs to do to get the win. Maybe after the Jets game he thinks he needs Julio.
"My soul sings a different song, in America..." - Creed
I could live with getting the 28th & 33th picks
With those we grab Stephen Paea or Phil Taylor & Rahim Moore. Then with our 2nd round pick, we grab Dontay Moch
Murphy’s 20th Military Law:
If it’s stupid, but it works, it ain’t stupid
by The Night Owl on Mar 16, 2011 3:21 AM CDT up reply actions
Trade up or Trade Down
My gut tells me that the BPA at 11# will be an average starter, not an impact player for the Texans. Like Okoye. I agree with trading up, but I’m curious to know how far we could trade up if we trade say Antonio Smith, 1st, and 2nd. Or Amobi Okoye, 1st and 2nd?
Or how about moving up in the second by trading one of said players and the pick we get from Atlanta?
Houston Texans:
1st Round: Brandon Harris (CB)
2nd Round: Stephen Paea (NT)
3rd Round: Quinton Carter (S)
4th Round: Shiloh Keo (S)
5th Round: Chris Carter (OLB)
6th Round: Alex Henery (P/K)
7th Round: Stephen Burton (WR)
by CCBach on Mar 15, 2011 5:37 PM CDT via mobile reply actions
Trading players for picks
This can’t be done without a CBA in place
Not to worry
It will be in place before the draft. I put my personal guarantee on that.
I didn't do anything wrong!.... and, I won't do it again.
Statistical Analysis based on drafts 2004-2008
I looked at 5 years of data from the 1st round (picks #8-#20) compared to the first 13 picks of the 2nd round (33-45)…
Here were some conclusions from the data:
odds of getting an elite player:
1st round = 25%
2nd round= 15%
odds of getting quality NFL starter (numbers include the elite players):
1st round = 60%
2nd round= 52%
odds of a total bust
1st round = 32%
2nd round= 32%
according to the chart, the 11th pick in the draft is equal the value of the 33rd, 34th, and a 4th round pick… Conclusion: TRADE DOWN!!
here’s the complete article, if interested: TexansBullBlog
I read your article
Over at TBB. I thought it was good analysis, and I don’t disagree with your findings. I’d much rather see the Texans trade down to acquire extra picks. I was just stating that if they did trade up, the only players I’d be ok with them targeting would be Miller, Dareus or Peterson.
Great stuff over there between you and Barrett btw.
Writer for Battle Red Blog - Twitter
Love that you're getting all statistical on us...
But I’d like to know more about your methodology. It seems a bit arbitrary in how players get classified. Maybe you got them all “right” (whatever "right is; perhaps the best way to judge is using FootballOutsiders stats), but it seems like a tall order to get them all right. I’m not trying to criticize, I really like your article, I’d just like to see even more from it (sorta like the way one cookie is good but leaves you wanting more cookie).

If there’s a way to measure impact value (player effectiveness as it relates to wage) then I think we could glean a much clearer picture of the difference between second round talent and first round talent. Regardless, very interesting article and I’m glad to see people using statistics to make their points.
La Voz
Methodology was simply my judgement… So, the numbers are certainly suceptible to my prejudices. Since you asked, here’s how I broke down a couple seasons. Here is a more precise look at a season.
2004:
Here were the quality players from picks 8-20, potential elite players in Bold
Deangelo Hall
Dunta Robinson
Ben Rothlisburger
John Vilma
Lee Evans
Tommy Harris
DJ Williams
Will Smith
Vernon Carey
from the 2nd round (33-45):
Karlos Dansby
Chris Snee
I. Olshansky
Julius Jones/ Travis Laboy (I basically counted each as 1/2)
Bob Sanders
Jake Grove
Jake
First, thanks for the compliment. We appreciate it.
I agree that it would be irresponsible for an organization to simply play with probability and ignore its ability to assess talent… at least, I think I do. The Texans have to have faith in their board, and, if they have Miller, or Peterson rated much higher, then it may make sense to go get one of them. However, if their goal isn’t simply to go get was is clearly the BPA, they should be very careful attempting to address needs by moving forward… I think that is one thing the statistical analysis definitely bares out.
Also, it is very interesting to me that I don’t note any difference in the bust rate between the 1st and 2nd round. That is astonishing and I think explains a lot regarding the ability of teams like Pittsburgh, Philadelphia, and New England to have such a long run of success the past decade.
I think perhaps a good quality is to show restraint in the case where you have a player that you think is that highly rated
Because, realistically, in the game of NFL football, it is highly unreasonable to get that player and have him make such a large difference in your team’s performance that it is worth giving up what you have to give up to go get him. Football is a game that does not hinge on one players performance one game after another. There are so many factors that go into it. Coaching, scheming, turnovers, big plays made by anyone, injuries. One player just is not a predictable difference-maker. Therefore, I highly recommend the Texans having faith in their board and then acting on it and “going” to get that player, which I assume means giving away something to get him.
I didn't do anything wrong!.... and, I won't do it again.
correction: I highly recommend AGAINST the Texans having faith......blah, blah, blah
I didn't do anything wrong!.... and, I won't do it again.
The Matt Schaub trade
Jake, you mentioned the Matt Schaub trade and it got me thinking. We could easily have just given up our 2007 pick (probably received a mid round pick in return) instead of trading our 2nd in ’07 and ’08, plus moving back to spaces in the 1st round.
Imagine how much better our team may have been if we didn’t have Amobi Okoye but had two second round picks and more money under the cap. Yikes! That seems like more evidence that the 1st round is over-weighted.
Speaking of Okoye
I have not heard his name in the mix for next year at all. Could we see a trade for draft position and his services as a package?
what doesn't kill us leaves a mark.
me too, that's pretty interesting...
if we trade him…he will go on to be a stud. he’s still young and not even in his prime years, but we really don’t need him. it would be nice if someone valued him highly for he still has upside.
Don't ask me! Ask Google, you dumb Yahoo!
patrick peterson
the only person i would be fine with trading up for is p. peterson!! we could possibly have the next charles woodson. i really like the N.E. scenario….possibly a b. harris at 17, then rahim moore/jabaal sheard, and the best int def lineman at the bottom of the second.

























