Arguing With Myself: Connor Barwin v. Brooks Reed
by UprootedTexan on Jun 8, 2011 1:30 PM CDT
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PrintTexans fans, Wade Phillips' arrival at Reliant Stadium has caused a whole lot of player shuffling on the defensive side of the ball. Mario Williams is playing weak outside linebacker, J.J. Watt is taking his place at defensive end, and Amobi Okoye has been sent to the playpen for a time out. With all this movement, questions abound, especially at the strong outside linebacker spot. Who is the better fit there, third year player Connor Barwin or Arizona rookie Brooks Reed?
A discussion of this importance requires a sharp mind and a sharper dresser, someone whose opinion carries some serious gravitas, but most importantly, someone who I can find on short notice, someone like...
Me, TexanUprooted! Jump with us to see the argument unfold!
UT: Texan, thank you for coming on such short notice.
TU: Not a problem, just make sure my appearance fee check doesn't bounce this time.
UT: I'll get on Tim about that. Who do you think should start at the WOLB spot for the Texans?
TU: Clay Matthews.
UT: On the Texans' roster, I mean.
TU: Yeesh, I dunno, you sure we can't get Clay Matthews?
UT: Yep. Okay, how about this, we'll both say it on three?
TU: Awesome! On three.
UT: Ready? One...two...three. Connor Barwin.
TU: Brooks Reed.
UT: Brooks Reed? You're kidding, right?
TU: I could ask you the same thing.
UT: Why?
TU: He's best suited to play OLB in a 3-4 defense.
UT: So is Barwin. Try again.
TU: Unlike Barwin, he can hear perfectly. How many offsides penalties do you think Barwin will be good for in regular playing time, if he can't hear the snap count? How many late starts will he get if he can't see the ball being snapped?
UT: He's done pretty well so far.
TU: Yeah, in limited playing time. What do you think will happen if he gets regular snaps? Besides, you know who else has hearing loss?
UT: Who? Who? Tell me!
TU: Flozell Adams. Do you really want another Flozell on your team?
UT: Nooooooooooooooooo!! Although I'm a bit relieved, I thought you were about to say Satan or something.
TU: He plays for the Steelers. Satan would be an improvement.
UT: True. But at least Barwin's been on the team for the last two years. He's played on the professional level, Reed hasn't.
TU: He's been a third down defensive end, not exactly a lot of playing time.
UT: No. But he's gotten 4.5 sacks in one year and one game in that role, against NFL-caliber talent. That's not to mention in that role he is a pass rushing specialist. His sole job is to chase down the quarterback like he stole something and then stomp him into a fine paste. Reed played all four years and got 17 sacks, for an average of 4 1/4 sacks a year. And that's from playing against such fierce competition as Washington State and the mighty UCLA Bruins. I'm waiting to be impressed.
TU: Maybe. But most of those sacks came in his sophomore (8.5) and senior (6.5) seasons. And he had a high ankle sprain in his junior season. That reminds me, did they ever manage to successfully reattach Barwin's foot? Last I saw, it was flopping around the field like a fish eluding the training staff.
UT: Yeah, the doctors say his ankle will be 100% for opening day, whenever that is. Is that why you're so geeked on Reed? He's new?
TU: Let me put it to you this way. Imagine it's Christmas Day.
UT: Oooooh, I love Christmas; the smell of cookies in the oven, seeing Dad passed out underneath the tree holding a bottle of Mad Dog, sigh...memories.
TU: Okay, now you're opening presents and you find what you've wanted for years wrapped in a big battle red bow and signed "From Santa Durga," under the tree.
UT: Next to Dad?
TU: Next to Dad. It's a shiny new pass-rushing linebacker.
UT: I do like shiny.
TU: Who doesn't? It's shiny, fresh out of the box, and it still has that new linebacker smell, not like the stink of failure from your old Action Frank doll.
UT: Yeah, I don't know how Action Frank wound up in the garbage disposal.
TU: But then you see your old pass-rushing linebacker from last Christmas.
UT: Oh...yeah.
TU: It's not as shiny, and it's got some damage.
UT: Why...why did Dad have to get drunk and mow the lawn?! Whyyyyyyyyyyy!!!!!
TU: But it's still perfectly good. Which one do you want?
UT: The shiny one! Can I have the shiny one?! Oh, please, please, please, please, please?!
TU: But what about the old one?
UT: I'll throw it aw--waaaaaaaaaaaait a minute...this is nothing like last Christmas at all!
TU: Did I also mention that Barwin only has two years of experience as a defensive player?
UT: So? In the one year he played DE at Cincinnati, he was a beast, made All-America and All-Big East honors, oh, and 10 sacks. I already mentioned his one full year in the pros. The most Reed ever got at Arizona was 8.5, and that was as a sophomore. Let's be honest here, TU; it's the hair, isn't it? It reminds you of Clay Matthews.
TU: He looks like a bad-ass viking warrior. How can you go wrong with that?
UT: Yeah, we play against the Titans twice a year. You know those dirty players will think nothing of grabbing him by the hair to pull him down. I mean, can you imagine the slapfights that those Titans linemen will start if that happens?
TU: Then we'll just have to see if Reed can make those linemen cry like little girls, or Cortland Innegan, if they do. Besides, Barwin always looks like he just woke up from a nap!
UT: That reminds me, I hear Okoye crying in his playpen, sounds like he needs changing.
TU: You should probably go check on that.
UT: Uh-uh, it's your turn this time.
TU: Fine...
UT: Remember, he likes extra talc!
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Also, I prefer to see Reed and Barwin rotate
I think they will be equally effective. Rotating them will keep them fresh…. like a baby!
I didn't do anything wrong!.... and, I won't do it again.
Barwin
I liked what I saw from him, and I haven’t seen anything on Brooks in the pros so for now Barwin because of experience.
and the clouds opened up and God said "I Hate you Texans Fans."
Barwin, and it's not even close
Not only did you point out that Barwin has more experience and production, I believe he is a better athlete as well. Even if they were both drafted this year, I’d still choose the rookie version of Barwin over Reed right now.
That’s not all to say that I don’t like Reed. I think he’ll be ok in spot duty, but he is very raw. His straight line speed will make him great for A Gap blitzes right away.
Writer for Battle Red Blog - Twitter
I would make a joke about Reed playing inside for those A-gap blitzes
but Wade’s talk, so far, has been all about moving talent around and shifting that front 7 in was Frank Bush never thought possible.
"Lord, beer me strength."
In Frank's defense,
Kubes did all the thinking in that relationship.
“Well they expect me to run, so I’ll pass!!! BRILLIANT!!!”
Canal Street Chronicles-A place of great Saints news and information. Oh and the stuff I write!
"I rejected those answers. Instead, I chose something different. I chose the impossible. I chose...Rapture!"
hahahahaha
You said “Frank’s defense”
My name is Barry - I am from Texas
by Barryfromtexas on Jun 8, 2011 6:03 PM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
His argument immediately gave up a touchdown
"Lord, beer me strength."
by TexansDC on Jun 8, 2011 6:18 PM CDT up reply actions 6 recs
Kubiak's offense just threw 3 straight incompletions.
Frank’s defense is back on the field. TOUCHDOWN- MEDIOCRE NFL TEAM!
Canal Street Chronicles-A place of great Saints news and information. Oh and the stuff I write!
"I rejected those answers. Instead, I chose something different. I chose the impossible. I chose...Rapture!"
Tim will rec this because you made fun of Amobi Okoye
As for the OLB discussion…it’s Barwin unless this ankle injury really screwed him up. However, I think he’s been medically cleared so I’m not too concerned on that. As you point out, I like Barwin’s experience more. Granted it’s not much, but the more experience on that defense…the better.
Still, if Mario needs a breather…you could put both Reed and Barwin out there. Even if Reed doesn’t start, I am a huge fan of this depth thing that Wade brought to the table. It’s an underrated aspect of this draft class…rotations keep people fresh and make everyone a bit more effective.
"Lord, beer me strength."
And another thing....
did you see that youtube vid on his boxing training?
wonder if he’ll still be able to run a 4.46 40 after the injury.
I thought Barwin ran a 4.66 at the combine...
While Reed ran a…. wait for it…. 4.66
Barwin did run faster than Reed did in the cone drills ect, so maybe is better moving in space.., but then as a 4-3 DE for 5 years in College, Reed had no reason to worry too much about conditioning his body for the open field. But as far as speed coming off the edge, i’d imagine they’re pretty even with Reed getting the slight edge because of his quicker start.
But then again
With all his injury problems, maybe Barwin isn’t quite as quick and limber as he used to be… Who’s to say?
40-time and 10-yard split don't really have much correlation with pass-rushing prowess.
The numbers that have historically (over the past ten years) seemed to indicate success are short shuttle, 3-cone, and vertical jump. Barwin blew Reed out of the water in all three of those. If Barwin comes back from his injury, he’s an elite athlete at the position. Reed is just meh. He’ll need to develop some pass-rushing moves and great hand technique to become a great edge-rusher.
I disagree on 10 yard split
Look at the top guys in the league and their splits are elite, like clay mathews and ware.
agree on the 40 time FOR SURE though
I see myself as an entertainer and an Icon. Oh and C finnegan can go fuck himself
That's the misconception, though.
Two doesn’t make a trend. People are high on the 10-yard split right now because of Clay Matthews, but there’s not much historical basis outside of that.
I like them both and Reed will be better than avg.
-I disagree, common sense can tell you the 10 yard split is a big factor for being a good pass rusher. but, as you mention technique and moves is what makes a player elite. Brooks, flashed at least 3 different moves at the Senior Bowl. So, he has moves, but needs to fine tune those moves. I think he will an elite pass rusher after some experience and will also have a very good rookie season.
-Barwin, is ready right now to be elite (if injury is not an issue).
-I can see Barwin playing weakside on enough plays to give Mario a rest. As with Brooks playing strongside to give Barwin rest and when Barwin is on the weakside. A 3 man rotation for our OLB’s because Barwin can play both.
Don't ask me! Ask Google, you dumb Yahoo!
Personally
I like Barwin at SOLB, Reed at WOLB, and Williams at DE… but that’s neither here nor there. I hope Williams works out at OLB, but I can’t help but think the team would be better off with Williams at DE, even if mario has less of an impact statistically he’d probably have more of an impact on the overall defensive production of the team… I think Williams moving to OLB has more to do with what Williams wants than any revelation the coaches have had.
That leave either JJ Watt or Antonio Smith on the sidelines
That’s a lot of money not playing, not that pay scaled should dictate who plays. But, just saying, that contradicts what appeared to be a well-thought out draft plan by Smithubiallips.
I didn't do anything wrong!.... and, I won't do it again.
Edge rushers
Are probably the most plug and play position on defense. If they have a quick start off the ball, and Reed certainly has that, they can get by with being a pure speed rusher off the edge while they learn greater technique. All the help is going to go Williams side more time than not, leaving Reed or Barwin 1 on 1 with probably the right tackle most the time. Unless it happens to be a seriously athletic RT, either will be a threat to run right past the dude before he even gets his feet set.
If teams then keep the TE on the “strong side” rather than motion him over to the weakside to help with Williams, then you see much the same problem over there. If the DE manages to tie up the LT, Williams is unblocked to the QB unless a RB can manage to block him… I for one would love to see the Titans tiny little Chris Johnson step in the way of a 290lb Mario Williams… if he goes out we win the game.
But short shuttle and 3-cone drills mean very little to pass rushing, you don’t see a whole lot of change of direction when rushing the passer…, and if they do then they probably took themselves out of the play in the attempt of eluding their blocker. Vertical… it depends on how telling you think that is to explosiveness in the lower body… Personally i’ve seen guys who are quick as a hiccup from standstill with legs the size of tree trunks but can’t jump much more than a foot. I think some people make too much more of it than they should. Barwin spent his college years off and on training for Basketball and tight end the majority of the time for football, while Reed trained only to play DE in the 4-3… of course Barwin is going to move a little better in space and jump higher…
However it might seem from a logical perspective...
There are about ten years of data that show short shuttle, three-cone, and vertical leap to be pretty relevant. You can read the summary of SackSEER here. It’s not perfect, but I haven’t seen a better model out there.
I do agree that it aught to be plug-and-play, though. It’s for that very reason that I didn’t see any need to draft an OLB in this draft. A brilliant defensive coordinator can generate a pass-rush with through scheme and blitzes, whereas there’s not much he can do to compensate for poor coverage. Still, it doesn’t hurt to have freak of nature coming off the edge… And if Barwin is healthy, I think he’s just that.
Because Barwin
Is just as much an unknown as any LB they brought in for the position. There’s no question he has the athletic ability, but Reed is right there with him… If you’re going to take a chance on inexperienced potential, why not hedge your bets with 2 guys who fill pretty much the same role. One might be too injured or not pick up the defense fast enough, but when you have two of them BOTH with huge potential as edge rushers, the chances increase that you’re going to get good production from the position. And if they hit a home run with one of those two 2nd round picks, no one will really gripe to heavily about the other that fizzled out or just didn’t live up to the hype.
But to say Barwin for sure should have the job… why? He hasn’t proven anything anymore than Reed has. Get them both into camp whenever you have it and compete for the starting gig. The competition may just speed up the learning process for them both.
Just watched an interview with Bill Kollar,
and this is what he said the lineups would most likely look like:
1st & 2nd down:
Mario as the WOLB and Connor as the SOLB.
JJ and Antonio as the DEs. One will play the 5-technique, and the other will play the 3-technique. Depends on which side the TE is on.
Mitchell and Cody will shade on either the left or right side of the center and play the A-gap, depending on which side the TE is on.
On 3rd down:
DE (Mario) DT (Watt) DT (Antonio) DE (Barwin, Reed)
Mario and Reed/Barwin will play the 7 techniques, while JJ and Antonio will play the 3-technique. Same thing as a 4-3 3rd down situation.
I like how Watt is going to play all 3 downs, because he can both stop the run and rush the passer.
Reed will likely rotate with Mario and Connor, which gives us a good pass rusher fresh off the bench in some situations.
"Hakeem couldn't kick your ass cuz you were too
close kissin his!"- Sir Charles to Kenny Smith.
I'm not very well versed with defenses
But is it common to have one of the ends line up as a 3-tech in a 3-4. From my understanding, I always thought they both play 5-tech. Also, will the 5 tech or 3 tech line up on the same side of the tight end? I’m assuming it’s the 3 tech so the SOLB will line up over the tight end, so we’ll be in an under front, which seems to be popular these days.
Oh, and that d-line on 3rd down is gonna be fast.
Fast and relentless
These guys won’t give up, at all. They will keep coming.
I didn't do anything wrong!.... and, I won't do it again.
Yah. They have that!
Effort should not be any question. Wade teaching should not be questioned. Putting it all together, I’m waiting to see, but very optimistic.
I didn't do anything wrong!.... and, I won't do it again.
Connor Barwin
Will start. Besides, I told him at Fan Fest that everyone at here at Battle Red Blog is expecting him to be a star this year.
My name is Barry - I am from Texas
I think he should listen
Connor Barwin will be a star.
I didn't do anything wrong!.... and, I won't do it again.
As long as he is 100% I agree
Injuries are his only real concern
I see myself as an entertainer and an Icon. Oh and C finnegan can go fuck himself
by AllenOU on Jun 8, 2011 5:40 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
I'm not sure on the experience bit...
While it’s true Brooks Reed has never played in the NFL and has only played 4-3 DE in college, he at least has 4 years + 1 redshirt season of defensive experience at the collegiate level. Barwin on the other hand had just 1 year of experience on the defensive side of the ball in college and then 2 injury plagued seasons with Frank Bush… and i’m not sure that doesn’t count as negative in the experience column… At the very least i’d put them about equal in terms of experience…
Athletically…, I don’t know… They both improved their grades from mid round to middle of the 2nd through the combine, they’re both scary good athletes. Honestly, I think the position is totally up in the air, whichever of the two learns it fastest will get the first crack at it. With Barwin maybe still not totally 100% whenever camp opens, Reed might have a good chance to come away with it.
erroneous
Rip is going to we himself no matter what happens. It must suck to be old.
You never really understand a person until you consider things from his point of view--until you climb into his skin and walk around in it.
ramblings of the incoherent.... early stages of alzheimers
I didn't do anything wrong!.... and, I won't do it again.
Barwin every day
and 50 times on sunday
You never really understand a person until you consider things from his point of view--until you climb into his skin and walk around in it.
thanks for the laughs (as usual;)
good question as well… I think it’s all about Barwin’s ankle, but I bet Reed sees plenty of snaps even if Barwin is the starter.
"Ignorance is bliss. Oedipus ruined a great sex life by asking too many questions." -Stephen Colbert
Well based on what we've seen from OTA's so far it looks like.....oh wait. F'ing lockout.
Seriously though it will basically depend on Barwin’s ankle. If he’s really 100% and can knock the rust off quickly you would think he would be the guy.
"If my hips had pockets, I wouldn't wear pants at all." @NotBurtReynolds
by papabear on Jun 9, 2011 10:13 AM CDT reply actions 1 recs
Why?
It’s not as if Barwin has tons of experience and knows the OLB position inside and out. I think they’re both coming in pretty equal in terms of understanding their role and how to do it… it’s just a matter of who can do it better. If you’re saying no to Reed simply because he hasn’t proven anything yet in the NFL, i’d say that because no one knows for sure what to expect from him, there’s no way you can say for certainty that Barwin is better in any way over Reed.
When Barwin played it was purely as a passrusher, it’s not like he’s going to be that much better in coverage or against the run than Reed would for sure… They’re both extremely inexperienced with huge athletic ability… Honestly, i’m not saying Reed will be the guy, just that as of now that it’d probably more a toss up than many seem to believe.
I'm not saying no to Reed
I’m just giving Barwin the edge because he’s been in the league a couple of years. That’s it. Reed’s head will be spinning just a little more because he’s a rookie. Barwin won’t need to adjust to the league, just the position. Barwin was doing a lot of standing up and dropping off in zone blitzes in training camp last year. You even saw some of it in the Indy game last year, so it won’t be completely foreign to him….but still a big learning curve for a whole new role.
Reed’s advantage is that Wade drafted him. I’m not saying Wade’s going to blow off Barwin, but it’s natural for coaches to be a little more attached to one of their guys.
As far as a known quantity their both good athletes who haven’t proven they can handle this role yet. So in that sense they are even. Assuming Barwin is really healthy of course….which I kind of doubt. I can easily see Reed winning out though either way though.
.
"If my hips had pockets, I wouldn't wear pants at all." @NotBurtReynolds
I don’t think that Reed being draft by Wade means anything. I believe, I read how Wade’s LB coach gushed over Barwin and dogged our coaches for not using him effectively. something like that.
Don't ask me! Ask Google, you dumb Yahoo!
I don't have any real reason to believe Wade will play favorites
Just that it can happen that a new coach might favor the “his” guys over players who were already there.
"If my hips had pockets, I wouldn't wear pants at all." @NotBurtReynolds
Let's not forget the biggest weakness of our linebackers....
covering those damn tightends. Everywhere talks about the pass-rushing but something I haven’t heard too much (since the solb will responsible for covering those te’s that repeatedly kill us) is which one of these fellas might have the best abilities at pass-coverage.
I believe in the 5-2 neither OLB will be covering much of anyone/thing
Will be the ILB or safety covering the TE. I think.
I am Sancho
by HoustonTransplant on Jun 13, 2011 12:30 AM CDT up reply actions
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