With Mario Williams Set To Become A Free Agent, DeMarcus Ware's Contract Could Prove Instructive
by Tim on Jan 21, 2012 4:08 PM CST
in General BRB Idiocy
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PrintEver since Wade Phillips decided that Mario Williams would be playing outside linebacker, Super Mario has been compared to DeMarcus Ware. Those comparisons were initially grounded in what we could expect Super Mario to do on the field via a look at what Ware did in Wade's scheme. Now, with your Houston Texans facing the decision of how to handle Mario Williams' impending free agency, the view shifts off the gridiron, to the land o' contracts.
MDC, among others, has frequently cited DeMarcus Ware's contract as proof that the Texans can structure a cap-friendly contract for The Man Who Saved Us From Reggie Bush. That piqued my curiosity, so I started looking for details on Ware's contract. Though Ware restructured his deal last August to provide some salary cap relief for his employer (exactly how it was restructured does not appear to be public knowledge, or at least I haven't been able to find anything that reveals the specifics), we can still look at the terms of his initial deal for some guidance as to how the Texans might try to create a palatable and appropriate deal for Mario Williams. I'm no capologist, and I won't even pretend to play one on this blog, but it would be beyond fantastic if Rick Smith could craft a deal similar to DeMarcus Ware's for Mario Williams.
The details, and some analysis of Ware's contract (before it got restructured) from NFP's Andrew Brandt:
Signing bonus: $20 million
Salaries
2009: $6M ($5.59M guaranteed)
2010: $7.8M (all guaranteed)
2011: $6.7M ($6.61M guaranteed)
2012: $4.5M
2013: $5.5M
2014: $12.25M
2015: $13.75MOffseason Workout Bonus: $500,000 per season 2011-2015
Total Value
All told, the contract worth is $79 million. That factors out to an APY (average per year) of $13.16 million.
Guarantee
The guaranteed amount is $40M, exceeding the guarantees of Rivers and Manning and pulling in right below the new standards for guaranteed contracts, those of Haynesworth ($41M) and Matthew Stafford ($41.7M).
Analysis: This is as impressive a number as there is other than the largest free-agent contract in NFL history (Haynesworth) and the largest rookie contract in NFL history (Stafford). There’s not much else to say. The numbers are remarkable.
A couple of things to bear in mind, in my estimation...
1. Ware's deal was negotiated in 2009, not 2012, so you have to account for a presumed increase in dollars given the three years that have passed. While that probably doesn't equate to a monstrous difference in money, there's almost sure to be some difference in a comparable deal for Mario Williams purely due to the later date in this negotiation.
2. There's additional money to spend, thanks to the increase in television dollars starting in 2014 via the new extensions the NFL signed with its network partners. The salary cap will also increase during that time, though we don't know exactly how much. Bottom line is that it probably makes more sense than ever to backload contracts given the changing salary cap and influx of television money on the horizon.
If the Texans can get Super Mario to agree to a deal that's similar in value and structure to DeMarcus Ware's, re-signing him becomes, dare I say it, a no-brainer. Your thoughts?
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If we could somehow sign Foster and Mario to long terms contracts,
that would be FANTASTIC.
"Hakeem couldn't kick your ass cuz you were too
close kissin his!"- Sir Charles to Kenny Smith.
Don't forget about our Probowl Center.
and the clouds opened up and God said "I Hate you Texans Fans."
Our Andre, who art from Heaven, hallowed by thy name.
Thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on Earth as it is in Canton.
We could just franchise him.
"Hakeem couldn't kick your ass cuz you were too
close kissin his!"- Sir Charles to Kenny Smith.
by bone31crusher on Jan 21, 2012 4:22 PM CST up reply actions
No
I want him locked up.
and the clouds opened up and God said "I Hate you Texans Fans."
Our Andre, who art from Heaven, hallowed by thy name.
Thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on Earth as it is in Canton.
We talking about a Texan
Or at Jest receiver?
"The greatest danger in planning for tomorrow is using yesterdays logic."
Marc Kahlberg
"Some ideas are so stupid that only intellectuals believe them." - George Orwell
I think we will learn that the Bo$$man was right
by Barryfromtexas on Jan 21, 2012 6:53 PM CST up reply actions
No we couldn't
His cap hit would be in the range of 23 million. We don’t have room for that.
Check out The Dream Shake.
by Patrick Harrel on Jan 21, 2012 11:40 PM CST up reply actions
I think he means put the franchise tag on Myers
Murphy’s 20th Military Law:
If it’s stupid, but it works, it ain’t stupid
"Fuck em all. Go Texans."
by The Night Owl on Jan 21, 2012 11:47 PM CST up reply actions
long days...
sigh
Check out The Dream Shake.
by Patrick Harrel on Jan 21, 2012 11:49 PM CST up reply actions
He was talking about Myers
but even Mario’s cap # wouldn’t be even remotely close to $23M.
I have not yet begun to defile myself.
The Two-Day Hangover @ Battle Red Blog (2011) & SBN Houston (2010) | Twitter | About MDC
Actually, it would
$22.8M or so because of the rules regarding mandatory raises above his current $18M+ salary. Even if he were just tagged for negotiating purposes, if his agent has any since he would have Mario insta-sign that when offered, greatly increasing his leverage for negotiating a long-term deal…
"Life is tough, but it's tougher if you're stupid." -John Wayne
Death before dishonor, drinks before lunch.
Never send sheep to kill a wolf.
by The American Ronin on Jan 25, 2012 10:48 AM CST up reply actions
The 120% of salary part of the tag applies only to actual 2011 salary, not his 2011 cap number. His salary was $13.8M, so a franchise-tag amount for him would be $16.56M.
I have not yet begun to defile myself.
The Two-Day Hangover @ Battle Red Blog (2011) & SBN Houston (2010) | Twitter | About MDC
agreed
All I want to do is FAAAARRRRRRRRRMMMMMMMMM!!!....and COok.
by Mellowcheese on Jan 21, 2012 4:20 PM CST up reply actions
the picture
anyone have the .gif or video of that sack?
I am Sancho
by HoustonTransplant on Jan 21, 2012 5:14 PM CST reply actions
I couldn't gif it, but
Here’s a link to Bulls on Parade, go to the 2:20 mark:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QsQXGMqmI2s
"I don’t like to really get in the quarterback’s head because I know he has a thousand other things to think about when he’s out on the field, but T.J. knows where I’m at."—Wide receiver Andre Johnson, on whether or not he lobbies for the ball in the huddle.
My fav sack of the year
The power that Big Ben has is often too much for pass rushers that only get a little jersey. Mario brought him down like a lion on a gazelle.
Rectum!? Damn near killed 'em!!!
by theSpaceCityKid on Jan 22, 2012 12:20 PM CST up reply actions
When Ware signed that contract, did he have an injury history as worrisome as Mario's?
I want Mario back, but he’s been as delicate as a thoroughbred race horse. Rick Smith will have to consider that when he structures a deal.
"How can an idiot be a policeman? Answer me that!"
-Chief Inspector Dreyfus
What an interesting debate this will be this offseason.
Although priority #1 is to resign Foster for me. Chris Myers is #2 and the Mario situation #3.
I’ve already seen a ton of arguments for keeping him or letting him walk but for me personally, I would absolutely hate to let a talent like him just walk. He picked up OLB so FAST last season that he looked every bit D.Ware 2.0. His size and speed made him impossible to block with TE’s and a pain for Tackles. He could change and dominate a game with more experience at OLB unlike we’ve ever seen from him. And with all due respect to Reed he can’t physically dominate from his spot like Mario can. I’d rather have the Barwin/Mario duo with Reed rotating in like the Texans started out doing. A rotation of good pass rusher is infinitely better than relying on two guys to give you your outside for every defensive snap. The Giants (best rotation in the league IMO) show this.
But then you have to look at other spots as well. Guys with only 1 year left on their contract.
Connor Barwin
Duane Brown
Gover Quin
Matt Schaub.
Tough times ahead for the Texans money wise.
So if Mario would be willing to take less to stay I’d say do it. Otherwise (talking about the future) we just can’t afford him. And it hurts to say that because I know he’d be a superstar OLB here. Maybe the best in the league.
Prediction: 11-5 AFC South champions.
by Ethan Matz on Jan 21, 2012 5:47 PM CST reply actions 3 recs
Other guys with 1 year left on their contracts as well but those 4 really stand out.
Prediction: 11-5 AFC South champions.
Yep, Duane Brown's contract in particular will be a serious issue next year.
Whatever the Texans do this year will have to be done with that in mind.
"How can an idiot be a policeman? Answer me that!"
-Chief Inspector Dreyfus
The salary cap is too complicated and too many factors are unknown for me to really speculate, but...
I think we’ll be able to re-sign all of these guys. Rick wouldn’t have brought in both Manning and Joseph last year if it meant sacrificing current Texan extensions. That’s not how he, Bob McNair or Kubiak operate. It’s all about rewarding loyalty and chemistry with them.
by willieboyd on Jan 21, 2012 7:08 PM CST up reply actions 3 recs
I believe a lot of the front office's success this past FA signing period needs to go to the VP Olsen,
the NFL contracts expert they hired in from the mothership. He was responsible for reviewing contracts for approval for the NFL front office. Muey insight into how contracts can be structured.
'Without change something sleeps inside us, and seldom awakens. The sleeper must awaken.' -Frank Herbert
This picture should have a caption contest.
Mario: GETTT OVERR HERE
BrokenBen:
True arrogance has been displayed here- WestministerRavensfan or something
Hi My name is Jack, why don't you help me off?
Mario: I bet you can squeal like a pig. Weeeeeeee!
Ben: Weeeeeeeee!
Dallas Cowboys, all hat and no cattle since 1996.
"Will it never be noon?" Duke of Orleans to the Dauphin and Constable of France every Sunday before the Texans play.
by Jonathan Fosburgh on Jan 21, 2012 6:18 PM CST up reply actions
Mario: Grunting like a Boss
Ben: RAAAAPPPPPEEEE
True arrogance has been displayed here- WestministerRavensfan or something
Hi My name is Jack, why don't you help me off?
HARF HARF HARF RAPE HILARIOUS
- Rivers McCown, From Mom's Basement | Twitter | Football Outsiders | Battle Red Blog
by riversmccown on Jan 21, 2012 11:13 PM CST up reply actions 3 recs
no its ok
he is raping a guy who is a rapist even though he has never been convicted in a court of law
Watch me all in flames, on a butterfly I ride
by nolander on Jan 22, 2012 1:58 AM CST via Android app up reply actions
It's ok
I’ve never been convicted of speeding either
True arrogance has been displayed here- WestministerRavensfan or something
Hi My name is Jack, why don't you help me off?
by WreckNTexan on Jan 22, 2012 7:41 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
which is a lie
True arrogance has been displayed here- WestministerRavensfan or something
Hi My name is Jack, why don't you help me off?
Please, again, Stop with the political - non football controversial stuff
If everybody was somebody, then nobody would be anybody - Gilbert and Sullivan
by professortex on Jan 22, 2012 4:11 PM CST up reply actions
How is that political at all?
He made a comment implying someone was not convicted in court and therefore did not do it. I brought up OJ, who btw played football.
"Never underestimate the dumb with JJ" - Hugh Jarce
the response serves to elicit a judicial discussion
but if you want to go there, here is the problem.
OJ is clearly not innocent in the general public that is subject to the demogogery of the media. Clearly, all of us regular people know more about what OJ did, even though we were not in the court to hear the case, than those selected as a jury. And since the people who were in the court decided the case different from those of us who weren’t there, they must be biased, stupid, or misled.
It is so unfortuante that we can’t accept the decision of a court in a fair trial. We might as well do away with the traditional trial by jury system and just try everyone via the media (because they always tell the truth and are just).
Heaven help the poor sod who actually is innocent, but people just don’t like him.
If everybody was somebody, then nobody would be anybody - Gilbert and Sullivan
by professortex on Jan 22, 2012 4:38 PM CST up reply actions
If you think OJ is innocent more power to you
Religion and politics are not be discussed on this blog, my comment involved neither. It is in the same realm as comments about Big Ben, which are made here on a fairly regular basis. Unless you make the same remark each time someone discusses that (which by my recollection you do not) I still do not see the point of your original comment to me.
"Never underestimate the dumb with JJ" - Hugh Jarce
Your query is not innoculous.
you asked:
So OJ is innocent?with the intention of using the unstated premise that “because OJ was obviously guilty, Rothlesburger must be guilty too”.
Your effort was to argue that Rothlesburger was guilty of rape despite the fact that he wasn’t convicted in court, and you used a poor analogy thinking that everyone agreed that OJ was guilty.
I could go on and on with the many logical faults of your statement as well.
Additionally, Whether I think he is innocent is irrelevant. The court said he was innocent and that MAKES IT SO. This has nothing to do with whether or not I think he did the deed.
If everybody was somebody, then nobody would be anybody - Gilbert and Sullivan
by professortex on Jan 22, 2012 5:25 PM CST up reply actions
You can try to pick apart my comment and change the subject all you like
Once again HOW was my original comment political? Me thinking OJ is guilty or not guiltyand making a smart-ass retort about it in no way violates the rules of this blog. If my tongue-in-cheek comment offended your delicate sensibilities I am sorry, but your original comment to stop “political non-football” talk was neither accurate nor relevant to my comment. Have a nice evening.
"Never underestimate the dumb with JJ" - Hugh Jarce
It was political by implication
To argue that OJ is not innocent requires that we accept that which isn’t true (that he is guilty) or that we argue why he is not, which would be a political discussion.
In other words, It is a fact that OJ is innocent. (why it is a fact is a political/judicial explaination)
On the other hand, he still might have killed someone, but that isn’t a political discussion, though it probably isn’t appropriate for this blog.
If everybody was somebody, then nobody would be anybody - Gilbert and Sullivan
by professortex on Jan 22, 2012 5:48 PM CST up reply actions
Just to nitpick, OJ is "not guilty," which is not the same as being "innocent"
by JBal on Jan 22, 2012 9:57 PM CST via Android app up reply actions 5 recs
^This
HUGE distinction that people miss all the fucking time.
I have not yet begun to defile myself.
The Two-Day Hangover @ Battle Red Blog (2011) & SBN Houston (2010) | Twitter | About MDC
I'll buy that,
But I do not see the distinction. Since I am not a lawyer, I would appreciate someone explaining the distinction to me. Is it a distinction without a difference?
If everybody was somebody, then nobody would be anybody - Gilbert and Sullivan
by professortex on Jan 23, 2012 2:32 PM CST up reply actions
I take it to mean
O.J. murdered two people in cold blood but got away with it because his lawyers gamed the system.
I'm a man!! I'm forty!!
The fact that a jury does not have enough evidence presented at trial to convict ("not guilty")
does not mean that the defendant is innocent. A jury has a very limited job scope and is limited by what was presented or allowed at trial. Frequently, they don’t get to hear the “whole” story about what really happened.
"My idea of an agreeable person is a person who agrees with me." -- Benjamin Disraeli
"If you really want something in life you have to work for it. Now quiet, they're about to announce the lottery numbers." -- Homer Simpson
"There is no rehab for stupid." -- Chris Rock
Never try to baptize a cat.
So innocent people are never accused of committing a crime.
Well then, why don’t we throw out the whole trial business and just toss em in prison as soon as someone accuses someone else of a crime. More efficient that way.
If everybody was somebody, then nobody would be anybody - Gilbert and Sullivan
by professortex on Jan 23, 2012 6:19 PM CST up reply actions
So they should have just called you instead of the jury that said otherwise.
This presumes that the jury that was assigned was too stupid to choose the right way., even though they were there in the courtroom seeing ALL of the evidence and hearing everyone’s argument. But we, who weren’t there, are much better suited to make that decision than that jury was. Again i say, perhaps we should throw out the whole jury idea and try people over the television. We could just take an electronic vote. that would be better,
If everybody was somebody, then nobody would be anybody - Gilbert and Sullivan
by professortex on Jan 23, 2012 6:24 PM CST up reply actions
Methinks you put way too much faith in the justice system
Have you been to court lately? It’s a joke. Money talks.
Regardless, it’s funny as hell watching you get all bent out of shape over O.J.
I'm a man!! I'm forty!!
Are you trolling me?
I have said several times that I don’t care about OJ.
I’m bent out of shape over people’s blind acceptance of anything the media says.
The point that I was making, is that if the court is going to be screwed up, would you prefer that it favors innocence, or guilt?
If you want OJ held accountable, then you would say it should favor guilt, which is great as long as it is the other guy. But what if you are the one being tried? Well, you can’t have it both ways.
If everybody was somebody, then nobody would be anybody - Gilbert and Sullivan
by professortex on Jan 24, 2012 8:04 PM CST up reply actions
the jury found him not guilty, so no question of that
To say he is innocent would say he didn’t kill anyone. OJ may be the only person who really knows if that is true.
Yet he WAS found guilty in the ensuing civil case.
And the reason being, as I understand it and the lawyers please correct me, was because the civil case did not require the same rules guilty as in one was beyond a reasonable doubt and the other was the preponderance of evidence or something like that.
Like I said, the lawyers can explain in better and more accurate detail than I can. I am just going off of a notoriously faulty memory and articles I have read.
Just my $.02
Even duct tape can't fix stupid
You are correct.
“Preponderance of the evidence” for the wrongful death suit requires that it be more likely than not that OJ killed the people. It’s far, far less exacting than “beyond a reasonable doubt” is.
I have not yet begun to defile myself.
The Two-Day Hangover @ Battle Red Blog (2011) & SBN Houston (2010) | Twitter | About MDC
He was not found guilty.
He was found responsible.
If everybody was somebody, then nobody would be anybody - Gilbert and Sullivan
by professortex on Jan 23, 2012 6:44 PM CST up reply actions
This is correct, except
he was found culpable or liable for their deaths, but not guilty. Only a criminal court can find guilty or not guilty.
And again, I’ve never held the position that he didn’t do the deed. I am just saying that we have to trust the finding of the court. If we don’t then it could backfire on us the day we find ourselves in front of a jury facing false accusations.
If everybody was somebody, then nobody would be anybody - Gilbert and Sullivan
by professortex on Jan 23, 2012 6:52 PM CST up reply actions
A person is supposed to be presumed innocent until proven guilty
If everybody was somebody, then nobody would be anybody - Gilbert and Sullivan
by professortex on Jan 23, 2012 6:26 PM CST up reply actions
Only in fairy tale land
It hasn’t been that way in a long time, bro. Sorry to break it to you. If you have money you are presumed innocent. If you have none you are screwed.
I'm a man!! I'm forty!!
As someone who has worked in and around criminal courts for years now
I don’t buy this. Is it easier to get an acquittal if you have deep pockets? Generally speaking, perhaps, but that’s far from a guarantee.
In fact, I would argue that the rich/poor distinction is far less important in criminal court in 2012 than is the black/white distinction. That said, it’s possible (if slightly more difficult) for a black man to get an acquittal from an all-white jury, and it’s certainly possible for other people to get acquitted when the evidence doesn’t reach reasonable-doubt status (see, e.g., Casey Anthony).
Stated a little more simply, just because people get convicted does not mean that innocent-until-proven-guilty does not exist. More likely, it just means that the reasonable-doubt standard was reached, and that’s exactly how the system is supposed to work.
Is it perfect? Of course not. (For instance, there ARE huge flaws with sentencing based on race as well as income disparity.) But the underlying principle here is still sound, and I’d rather go to trial in America than in a whole bunch of other countries.
I have not yet begun to defile myself.
The Two-Day Hangover @ Battle Red Blog (2011) & SBN Houston (2010) | Twitter | About MDC
I concur with this
If everybody was somebody, then nobody would be anybody - Gilbert and Sullivan
by professortex on Jan 24, 2012 8:07 PM CST up reply actions
Amanda Knox agrees
Murphy’s 20th Military Law:
If it’s stupid, but it works, it ain’t stupid
"Fuck em all. Go Texans."
by The Night Owl on Jan 25, 2012 9:45 AM CST up reply actions
This is blatantly untrue.
If everybody was somebody, then nobody would be anybody - Gilbert and Sullivan
by professortex on Jan 24, 2012 8:05 PM CST up reply actions
replying to Hydro
If everybody was somebody, then nobody would be anybody - Gilbert and Sullivan
by professortex on Jan 24, 2012 8:05 PM CST up reply actions
Guilty/Not Guilt
goes to legal culpability for a crime. A person can be not guilty because they did not commit the crime, or they can be not guilty simply because there was not enough evidence to meet the “beyond a reasonable doubt” standard.
Innocence (or lack thereof) goes to moral culpability.
I have not yet begun to defile myself.
The Two-Day Hangover @ Battle Red Blog (2011) & SBN Houston (2010) | Twitter | About MDC
Innocence does not define whether someone did something or not
Nor does “guilty” or “not guilty”. In our legal system, we must presume someone is innocent, unless proven guilty, or the system does not work.
I refer to William Blackstone’s formulation (or principle). It is a cornerstone to a fair criminal legal system.
If everybody was somebody, then nobody would be anybody - Gilbert and Sullivan
by professortex on Jan 23, 2012 6:32 PM CST up reply actions
I'm not disagreeing.
I’m saying that (a) there’s no such thing as being found “innocent” in court, as the court/jury is concerned with whether you are legally liable (not morally liable) and (b) the fact that you didn’t commit a crime, which results in there not being enough evidence to convict you of it, still does not mean that you were found “innocent.”
So, yes, you are innocent until proven guilty, with the caveat that, once you are accused, you can only be found guilty or not guilty.
I have not yet begun to defile myself.
The Two-Day Hangover @ Battle Red Blog (2011) & SBN Houston (2010) | Twitter | About MDC
Ok, we are on the same page then.
I was trying to point out that: Because one is presumed innocent, when they are found “not guilty” they are then “ipso facto” innocent.
If everybody was somebody, then nobody would be anybody - Gilbert and Sullivan
by professortex on Jan 24, 2012 9:01 AM CST up reply actions
How is this the case?
Is it a matter of vocabulary? Does the court give the jury a choice of picking “not guilty” or “innocent”?How can you be “not guilty” and “not innocent” at the same time? If you can do this, it would imply that you can be "guilty and “innocent” at the same time. If I’m mistaken, please explain it to my feeble understanding of the meaning of these words.
If everybody was somebody, then nobody would be anybody - Gilbert and Sullivan
by professortex on Jan 23, 2012 2:43 PM CST up reply actions
Guys, don't get me wrong
OJ can burn in hell for all I care. I am far more concerned with people’s readyness to reject the finding of a court of law in favor of the blatherings of a incompetent media, that is driven by sensationalism.
If a court says someone is “not guilty”, then it is incumbent on us to accept that finding, or our system of justice becomes useless.
If everybody was somebody, then nobody would be anybody - Gilbert and Sullivan
by professortex on Jan 23, 2012 2:50 PM CST up reply actions
In terms of jail time, there's no difference between innocent and not guilty.
I’m not sure about the potential uses of either verdict in a civil trial, but aside from that, here’s the difference.
Innocent means that there was enough evidence to show that you did not do whatever it was you were accused of.
Not guilty means that there was not enough evidence to show that you did what you were convicted of.
by Tailgate Andy on Jan 23, 2012 2:55 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I don't understand this
Unless you are saying that our system has bcome useless because it didn’t find OJ guilty. Of course, those of us out here watching the “trustworthy” news media are soo much better suited to judge “guilty” or “not guilty”, than the jury that actually sat in on the trial.
If everybody was somebody, then nobody would be anybody - Gilbert and Sullivan
by professortex on Jan 23, 2012 6:58 PM CST up reply actions
I'm saying our justice system is shit
You’re holding on to a myth that justice will always prevail based on the evidence, and I’m saying it doesn’t work that way any more. For the most part, the system is corrupt, and money can buy you freedom. If it weren’t there would be a shit load of bankers in jail right now.
I'm a man!! I'm forty!!
No, he's holding on to an ideal.
That’s the best you can do in the real world.
It’s true that a poor man who committed OJ’s crime would have been convicted. That does not mean that the American justice system is a hopeless joke. It is a human institution and therefore inevitably flawed.
"How can an idiot be a policeman? Answer me that!"
-Chief Inspector Dreyfus
by FreedomRide on Jan 24, 2012 4:36 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
A rich man who committed OJ's crime
likely would have been convicted, too. That case was the perfect storm of money and fame (in the defendant), shitty police work, AND inept prosecutorial strategy.
I have not yet begun to defile myself.
The Two-Day Hangover @ Battle Red Blog (2011) & SBN Houston (2010) | Twitter | About MDC
absolutly agree with this
One can properly argue that the case was grossly mishandled without saying the accused must be guilty because it was mishandled.
If everybody was somebody, then nobody would be anybody - Gilbert and Sullivan
by professortex on Jan 24, 2012 8:10 PM CST up reply actions
But less likely than a poor man,
wouldn’t you agree?
"How can an idiot be a policeman? Answer me that!"
-Chief Inspector Dreyfus
Yes.
But a solid argument can be made that this result has less to do with “hey, that’s a rich guy” and more to do with the fact that the rich guy can afford private attorneys and pay them enough that they devote all their time an energy to the rich guy’s case. There are some fantastic attorneys who are public defenders, but they still have only 24 hours in any given day, ya know?
I have not yet begun to defile myself.
The Two-Day Hangover @ Battle Red Blog (2011) & SBN Houston (2010) | Twitter | About MDC
Yes, that's what I was implying:
more money can (usually) buy better attorneys. I doubt it could be shown that criminal juries have any particular sympathy for wealthy defendants.
"How can an idiot be a policeman? Answer me that!"
-Chief Inspector Dreyfus
Agreed
on both points.
I have not yet begun to defile myself.
The Two-Day Hangover @ Battle Red Blog (2011) & SBN Houston (2010) | Twitter | About MDC
I am not defending OJ
and I am not defending the court.
I am defending the principle that our court system was founded on (a presumption of innocence). It is our (yours and mine) responsibility to uphold this principle, or we will collapse into an arbitrary system that casts the accused into prison with no trial. A system where the accusation has more weight than the trial.
We are already beginning to become a society in which that sort of thing happens via the media. The OJ trial is just such an example. As was the Casey Anthony case, the Scott Peterson case, and , especially, the Richard Jewel (guy accused of the olympic bomb, but was found out to be innocent after the media destroyed his life) case.
Because of the crap that the media does, these people were all tried buy the public through the media. If you will notice, in every single one of them, the media convinced the public that these people were guilty before a trial ever took place. Yet, 3 out of the 4 were aquitted, and many people still hold that 2 of the aquited were really guilty and the courts got it wrong.
If everybody was somebody, then nobody would be anybody - Gilbert and Sullivan
by professortex on Jan 24, 2012 8:33 PM CST up reply actions
Should we add the Duke Lacrosse players in that mix?
Dallas Cowboys, all hat and no cattle since 1996.
"Will it never be noon?" Duke of Orleans to the Dauphin and Constable of France every Sunday before the Texans play.
by Jonathan Fosburgh on Jan 26, 2012 8:27 AM CST up reply actions
at least to reassert that this is a sports topic.
If everybody was somebody, then nobody would be anybody - Gilbert and Sullivan
by professortex on Jan 26, 2012 12:30 PM CST up reply actions
I actually hit on this re: Casey Anthony
Why was Casey Anthony found innocent?
She wasn’t. She was found not guilty. “Not guilty” describes a jury’s conclusion regarding the quantum and character of proof, while “innocent” describes a state of moral culpability. Pedantry aside, she was acquitted because the criminal justice system worked and did not allow someone to be convicted without proving beyond a reasonable doubt that she committed the crime.
I have not yet begun to defile myself.
The Two-Day Hangover @ Battle Red Blog (2011) & SBN Houston (2010) | Twitter | About MDC
So again, are we going on a presumption of guilt?
If everybody was somebody, then nobody would be anybody - Gilbert and Sullivan
by professortex on Jan 23, 2012 6:33 PM CST up reply actions
no, neither is a proof though
he is presumed innocent, not proven innocent. By the same token he is found guilty not proven guilty. A jury isnt infallible, so it isnt proven either way, but we take it on faith that they did their conscientious best.
ok, I accept this
I was having a kneejerk reaction to the thought that you were supporting a conclusion with a faulty premise.
If everybody was somebody, then nobody would be anybody - Gilbert and Sullivan
by professortex on Jan 24, 2012 9:04 AM CST up reply actions
but your point is well taken
we should never second guess a jury’s decision based on what we read in the news. That would be almost as bad as believing anything Pancakes writes
Yes.
If everybody was somebody, then nobody would be anybody - Gilbert and Sullivan
by professortex on Jan 24, 2012 9:04 AM CST up reply actions
No, not in the least.
The reason Anthony was acquitted was specifically because she was presumed innocent until proven guilty. The state failed to prove her guilt, so the presumption of innocence won out, just like the system is supposed to work.
I have not yet begun to defile myself.
The Two-Day Hangover @ Battle Red Blog (2011) & SBN Houston (2010) | Twitter | About MDC
Yes.
If everybody was somebody, then nobody would be anybody - Gilbert and Sullivan
by professortex on Jan 24, 2012 9:05 AM CST up reply actions
Not to mention the prosecution failed to even prove that Caylee's death was a result of homicide
Murphy’s 20th Military Law:
If it’s stupid, but it works, it ain’t stupid
"Fuck em all. Go Texans."
by The Night Owl on Jan 24, 2012 9:50 AM CST up reply actions
Mario is a GREAT player
But its going to come down to if re-signing him hinders the team financially. If signing him means we can’t sign Foster or Myers this year or Duane Brown or Schaub next year, then we can’t afford to keep him. I really hope that quote about Kubiak being worth a pay cut to stay is true.
by Its Gonna Happen on Jan 21, 2012 7:51 PM CST via mobile reply actions
wait
wait, what quotation are you referring to?
from whom?
about what?
said where?
I really hope that quote about Kubiak being worth a pay cut to stay is true.
“sourcez”!
;-)
#Texans2011 — Where reality and dreams collide!
~~ Fuzion
"This is a grown dog’s game. Ain’t no puppies out here." ~~ Cushing #56 to Antonio Smith #94
by BattleRedFan on Jan 22, 2012 1:54 AM CST up reply actions
I believe it was Glover
maybe someone else,said everyone on the team says Kubes is the best coach to play for and that you should do whatever possible (including pay cuts) to stay here
awesome! thank you Splanket and Whiskey R
=)
#Texans2011 — Where reality and dreams collide!
~~ Fuzion
"This is a grown dog’s game. Ain’t no puppies out here." ~~ Cushing #56 to Antonio Smith #94
by BattleRedFan on Jan 22, 2012 6:09 PM CST up reply actions
foster sure
but Meyers? come on
Watch me all in flames, on a butterfly I ride
by nolander on Jan 22, 2012 1:58 AM CST via Android app up reply actions
There is nothing more important than keeping your offensive line intact.
Hell, I’d put Brisiel as a higher priority than Mario.
by Nashmeister on Jan 22, 2012 10:23 AM CST up reply actions
The way i see it
our defense proved it could live without Mario. I don’t know how the O-line could live without Myers or Brown.
and the clouds opened up and God said "I Hate you Texans Fans."
Our Andre, who art from Heaven, hallowed by thy name.
Thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on Earth as it is in Canton.
What?
Myers is absolutely freaking ELITE. He is one of those pieces people don’t notice, but the kind of drop off we’d see with someone else there would be huge.
Considering that's what we do
why would that limitation matter?
I have not yet begun to defile myself.
The Two-Day Hangover @ Battle Red Blog (2011) & SBN Houston (2010) | Twitter | About MDC
If you are a beast you just dominate.
I cannot say he dominates, but is a great player. When i see the word Beast be throwing around, the thing that comes to mind is Andre on the Cards. Have you seen him just manhandle anybody? I have not.
Oh, ok.
That’s a fair distinction.
I have not yet begun to defile myself.
The Two-Day Hangover @ Battle Red Blog (2011) & SBN Houston (2010) | Twitter | About MDC
Uhh...where is the word "beast" being tossed around?
If everybody was somebody, then nobody would be anybody - Gilbert and Sullivan
by professortex on Jan 22, 2012 1:53 PM CST up reply actions
I am probably going to make ya'll happy
A lot of People are saying that Mario is going to get ~70-80 million right? well they said that Scrabble was going to get 15-18 million last year…I said that he would get 10-15 at most last year…(Scrabble got 12 mill on avg)
What does this mean? IT mean that you need to listen to me.. Mario IS NOT going to get 70 mill…. I am think at most a 50-60 million dollar deal for 5-6 years with roughly half Guaranteed, and a good portion of that will be tied to Playing time incentives…..
Here’s a theoretical play from 2010: Snap. Tony takes 7 step drop. Tony looks left at Miles, who is doubled, and looks right to where Roy Williams should be…but instead sees Colombo on his back and a Defensive End foaming at the mouth jumping over Marc’s carcass. Tony proceeds to run like hell and look for Witten
-by CotySaxman on Jul 11, 2011 7:50 AM PDT
Now, if somebody doesn’t agree with that, that’s cool. I also don’t agree with the fact that I don’t have $10 million in my bank account. But the fact that I don’t agree with it doesn’t make it any less true.
by One.Cool.Customer on Dec 23, 2010 12:00 AM PST
by I am Ironman!!! on Jan 21, 2012 8:11 PM CST reply actions
No way Mario only gets $25 million guaranteed.
Total money really doesn’t mean much, it’s all about the guaranteed.
In other news...
Wade Phillips wins the South Carolina primary for President! Yeahh!!
"I don’t like to really get in the quarterback’s head because I know he has a thousand other things to think about when he’s out on the field, but T.J. knows where I’m at."—Wide receiver Andre Johnson, on whether or not he lobbies for the ball in the huddle.
At least we know the Texans won't hire Gingrich ...
… with off-field character issues like he has he wouldn’t get a foot in the door at Reliant. Shame the supposedly conservative voters of SC didn’t seem to mind a chicken-hawk, big-spending, adulterous, sellout Stay-Puft clone douche running their country though. Bizarre.
We have the superior marshmallow man.
I thought it fitting, considering the rocky terrain ...
by TimtheEnchanter on Jan 22, 2012 6:31 AM CST up reply actions
no politics
If everybody was somebody, then nobody would be anybody - Gilbert and Sullivan
by professortex on Jan 22, 2012 10:10 AM CST up reply actions
spam here i think
If everybody was somebody, then nobody would be anybody - Gilbert and Sullivan
by professortex on Jan 22, 2012 10:11 AM CST up reply actions
No Political Talk Here, Please
There are plenty of sites to talk about Newt Gingrich, but this ain’t one of ’em.
Ecstatic that Texans fandom no longer means that April is the highlight of my season...
by Tim on Jan 22, 2012 10:23 AM CST up reply actions 2 recs
Why don't you delete it then?
He can make a statement but the opposing viewpoint can’t be heard?
"All our lives we're taught to get in line. The ones who conform never discover." - Undrafted Free Agent and NFL Rushing Leader Arian Foster
His "response"
was infinitely more political and unnecessary than a joke about Wade winning the SC primary. The first sentence of the response was pushing it, though it probably would have been ignored, but the second sentence was just completely political and outside what is proper here or what was called for by the original statement.
I have not yet begun to defile myself.
The Two-Day Hangover @ Battle Red Blog (2011) & SBN Houston (2010) | Twitter | About MDC
I see we are all in agreement
Yet it is still there.
"All our lives we're taught to get in line. The ones who conform never discover." - Undrafted Free Agent and NFL Rushing Leader Arian Foster
I follow you now
The statement should be removed….I agree
If everybody was somebody, then nobody would be anybody - Gilbert and Sullivan
by professortex on Jan 22, 2012 4:02 PM CST up reply actions
He was refering to the fact that a real response hasn't been made yet
and that a response can’t be made because of the “no politics”. In other words, there is no response to the response. And since we can’t respond to the real political statement, it should be removed.
If everybody was somebody, then nobody would be anybody - Gilbert and Sullivan
by professortex on Jan 24, 2012 9:13 AM CST up reply actions
referring*
If everybody was somebody, then nobody would be anybody - Gilbert and Sullivan
by professortex on Jan 24, 2012 9:13 AM CST up reply actions
Htowns' statement showed no political stance
The response to it clearly establishes a political stance.
If everybody was somebody, then nobody would be anybody - Gilbert and Sullivan
by professortex on Jan 22, 2012 1:44 PM CST up reply actions
Duh!
"All our lives we're taught to get in line. The ones who conform never discover." - Undrafted Free Agent and NFL Rushing Leader Arian Foster
Huh, then I must have missed something
seems to me you were saying that we get upset when one guy makes a political statement but not when another does. Only one guy made a political statement, and we responded to it. So I don’t see why you are antagonistic.
If everybody was somebody, then nobody would be anybody - Gilbert and Sullivan
by professortex on Jan 22, 2012 4:00 PM CST up reply actions
nevermind...I see what you are driving at.
If everybody was somebody, then nobody would be anybody - Gilbert and Sullivan
by professortex on Jan 22, 2012 4:03 PM CST up reply actions
This was supposed to be a funny side note
Because Newt looks like Wade, and you had to go all political on us….geez. Next time go to the Huffington Post or CNN to spew this crap. I was going to respond, but it’s not worth it. Let’s keep it about football, shall we?
"I don’t like to really get in the quarterback’s head because I know he has a thousand other things to think about when he’s out on the field, but T.J. knows where I’m at."—Wide receiver Andre Johnson, on whether or not he lobbies for the ball in the huddle.
by HTown24 on Jan 22, 2012 12:52 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
I would like to point out a small fact about the players of which you are discussing above
None of the players, Mario Williams, DeMarcus Ware, or Matt Stafford have ever won a Super Bowl. Oh, what the hell, let’s add Albert Haynesworth to that thought, too. In fact, these players never played in a Super Bowl. Oh wait, only two of the players have even sniffed the playoffs. And, I use the team sniff, loosely.
Now that I have set that up, let me ask; do you think there is a correlation between highly paid players and the likelihood that the team the highly paid player is on will win a Super Bowl? The answer should be an obvious “yes.” I don’t think you have to be a capologist to come to that conclusion.
Okay, can any reasonable observer come to a conclusion based on “the Super Bowl” being a goal? To answer this, I want to point at the New England Patriots as an example of a team that has put into practice what it takes to maintain a Super Bowl contending team over time. They have been willing to say goodbye to good players who thought they had to get paid more that didn’t fit into the team payroll system. You look at the Patriots over the last decade and you will see player after player who left the team when it got down to being able to fit them into the payroll system or breaking the payroll system.
So, you might guess where this is going. Either Mario Williams get with the program or he is gone. Simple as that. No emotions. He is gone.
Why? Because you can’t sacrifice the team for one player. That is why. Does Rick Smith see it the same way? We will see.
"All our lives we're taught to get in line. The ones who conform never discover." - Undrafted Free Agent and NFL Rushing Leader Arian Foster
by Rip Jersey on Jan 22, 2012 7:40 AM CST reply actions 3 recs
I will answer my own question, yes, Rick Smith knows all about keeping the payroll system intact
Reference, Dunta Robinson and Vonta Leach as examples of players that had to get paid highly, didn’t fit into the team’s system and went somewhere else to get paid.
"All our lives we're taught to get in line. The ones who conform never discover." - Undrafted Free Agent and NFL Rushing Leader Arian Foster
The thing you fail to say is.
Pats players were getting up there in age. Mario is only 26 alot more good years there. If they get rid of Gronk when he is 26 then you got a case. You really cannot compare the two.
The Patriots are the perfect case,Southpaw
They have remained relevant for a decade and will remain relevant. To point at Gronkowski as an example of how the Patriots invalidates them as a case of payroll restraint is just plain, well you know. I can’t say what it is. But it is.
"All our lives we're taught to get in line. The ones who conform never discover." - Undrafted Free Agent and NFL Rushing Leader Arian Foster
I understand what you trying to do.
Yes they have been relevant for a decade, but what real superstar have that had besides brady? Pats get rid of people who are getting up there in age. The thing they do so well is moving back in drafts, which i hope we could do. The whole Gronk thing might not be good example, but when he his due for a raise do you think they will just let him walk or pay him?
If you know what I was trying to do then you wouldn't even mention Gronk
Your replies defy description.
"All our lives we're taught to get in line. The ones who conform never discover." - Undrafted Free Agent and NFL Rushing Leader Arian Foster
Betcha Welker gets paid. What elite player besides Seymour did the Pats not pay to keep?
And there were personality issues in Seymour’s case that do not apply to Mario. The same could be said for Dunta and, anyway, it could be argued that his “elite” days were over by the time he left. As for Vonta, FB is a more fungible position than edge rusher.
It is true that the Texans are devoted to a conservative model of personnel management (thank goodness), but they have never been faced with quite this situation before. I do not expect them to break the bank for Mario, but they might bend it a little.
"How can an idiot be a policeman? Answer me that!"
-Chief Inspector Dreyfus
I don't know if you follow the draft every year
But, every single season, the Patriots lead the league in compensatory draft picks. If you know where they come from, then you will realize that you are just blowing smoke.
"All our lives we're taught to get in line. The ones who conform never discover." - Undrafted Free Agent and NFL Rushing Leader Arian Foster
Yeah a lot of those picks end up being useless to.
Just ask any Pats fan.
Prediction: 11-5 AFC South champions.
Yet, they get them, don't they. Why is that?
"All our lives we're taught to get in line. The ones who conform never discover." - Undrafted Free Agent and NFL Rushing Leader Arian Foster
Please go read up on compensatory draft picks and come back to join in the conversation
"All our lives we're taught to get in line. The ones who conform never discover." - Undrafted Free Agent and NFL Rushing Leader Arian Foster
Please go follow up on what I said about most of those extra picks being worthless.
I’ll make it easy for you. http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/nwe/draft.htm
Also. Noteworthy compensatory draft picks since Bill.B was made Head Coach.
Tom Brady.
That’s virtually it. Unless you’d like to include David Givens Patrick Pass and Julian Edlman. All except Julian were taken before 2007-2011.
Also, if you don’t believe what I was saying about the Pats acquiring many of their picks in the later rounds (mainly since 2007) then just look it up for yourself.
Come back to the conversation once you’ve done this…
Prediction: 11-5 AFC South champions.
Not even worth replying to
"All our lives we're taught to get in line. The ones who conform never discover." - Undrafted Free Agent and NFL Rushing Leader Arian Foster
You didn't address my point at all.
Mario is an elite player and regarded as a team leader. His case is different than the examples you gave. Who’s blowing smoke?
"How can an idiot be a policeman? Answer me that!"
-Chief Inspector Dreyfus
I'd argue none of the above were in the Mario or Welker class when they left.
I maintain that RJ has not made a valid connection between Mario’s particular case and what the Pats have done with some good—but not elite—players.
Of course, if he gets a stupid offer from another team that they are asked to match, the Texans will decline. In this respect they are like the Pats: smarter than a lot of other teams.
"How can an idiot be a policeman? Answer me that!"
-Chief Inspector Dreyfus
I did not know we where comparing the guys to mario.
Cause if that was the case the only person to compare would be Brady vs Mario. He said the pats stay relevant cause the moves they do. No real commitment to the players.
You guys have no concept for "team"
"All our lives we're taught to get in line. The ones who conform never discover." - Undrafted Free Agent and NFL Rushing Leader Arian Foster
And you
seem to ignore how much better Mario makes everyone around him. Not to mention your nonsensical assertion that there should be “a correlation between highly paid players and the likelihood that the team the highly paid player is on will win a Super Bowl.”
A. 4 of the 5 highest average salaries have won Super Bowls (http://www.spotrac.com/top-salaries/nfl/average/), but that has far more to do with the fact that good QBs are highly paid than it does that paying someone a lot means that you will get to the Super Bowl.
B. Mario Williams only jumped way up on the highest-paid list this season. Prior to this year, he never had a cap hit over $4.5M.
C. My concept of “team” includes paying elite players who make the other players on that side of the ball better.
D. The Patriots’ success has a helluva lot to do with a great QB and great coach (who is willing to think outside the box and use a TE at RB). I’d argue that it has far more to do with that than it does with what the team is paying to any one player.
E. At the same time, your initial point is further muddied by the fact that Tom Brady is the fourth-highest paid player in the NFL (in terms of average salary) and the $13.2M cap hit he had this season was far and away lower than it will be over the next three seasons. (http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/new-england-patriots/tom-brady/)
F. The Patriots’ defense is abysmal, so it’s not like they are spreading the money around to build a balanced team. In fact, they’ve invested a huge part of their money into their passing offense, daring teams to try and outscore them, which is kind of what they have to do with that much cash rolled up in their QB. So spare me the “you can’t sacrifice the team for one player” example as applied to the Pats.
I have not yet begun to defile myself.
The Two-Day Hangover @ Battle Red Blog (2011) & SBN Houston (2010) | Twitter | About MDC
by MDC on Jan 22, 2012 1:10 PM CST up reply actions 10 recs
I approve of a contract for Mario where his cap hit contribution averages below $6M
Mario Williams only jumped way up on the highest-paid list this season. Prior to this year, he never had a cap hit over $4.5M.
That is incredible! If we can keep it under $6M a year going forward, I’d say it’s a great deal.
I think he could get 7mil and we would still be ok
that would also match Andre (I think)
If everybody was somebody, then nobody would be anybody - Gilbert and Sullivan
by professortex on Jan 22, 2012 1:57 PM CST up reply actions
Re: your post. I'm not sure what point you are trying to make. Are you saying we should overpay Mario to keep him? We should pay him like a QB?
a.) you are correct on the QB fact. You also seem to forget that Mario is not a QB.
b,) Who cares how much Mario has been paid in the past? It has no bearing on his future contract.
c.) I agree. Mario is not an elite player.
d.) Yes, again on the QB fact. Again, Mario is not a QB.
e.) Again, you are using averages that include QBs and Mario is not a QB.
f.) Again, Brady is a QB. Mario is an OLB.
You are comparing apples to oranges when it comes to the individual players. As Mario goes, the team does not follow. Mario has finished the last two seasons on the IR. The team did not fall apart. In fact they had their best season ever, this season, with Mario out the second half of the season. It could have been better with him. But that had nothing to do with money. This is a business. Mario will have to keep his need for money within reason if he is to stay with the Texans. Otherwise, Rick Smith will be ready to make the necessary moves. Won’t he? Mario is not a QB. You seem to think he should be paid like one. This defense does not revolve around Mario. That fallacy that it is was was proved otherwise this past season.
"All our lives we're taught to get in line. The ones who conform never discover." - Undrafted Free Agent and NFL Rushing Leader Arian Foster
I believe Mario will be an elite player under Wade
as long as he can stay healthy. His health is my big concern. But under Wade, he can do something that I believe is unique. He can walk up to the line, read the offense formation, and then play either DE or OLB. This decision can be done at the last minute, and would be the defensive counter to the “hurry-up” offense.
I think Mario wants to succeed, and I think deferring some of his money would work for both him and the team. I hope they make that sort of arrangement, because we do not want to get into the situation Indy did where Peyton was the whole team
You said that there should be
“a correlation between highly paid players and the likelihood that the team the highly paid player is on will win a Super Bowl.” I pointed out that there was, at least insofar as the highest salaries were concerned. That was point A.
B. It is relevant in any discussion of what Mario should/will get paid. The fact that he cashed in on the last year of a backloaded deal does not mean that he is going to expect (or get) a new contract that has yearly amounts close to his 2011 salary.
C. You are wrong.
D. Your “point” was that a team should not overpay for any one player, and you used the Patriots as an example of this, despite the fact that Tom Brady gets paid a ton of money. Your original post said nothing about a distinction where it was ok to pay QBs a ton but not anyone else. You are attempting to change the discussion here by acting like you acknowledged the QB distinction initially, which you did not, rather than admitting that your point vis-a-vis the Patriots was incorrect.
E. It does not matter that Mario is a QB. I never said that Mario should be paid like a QB. I was responding to your assertions about the Patriots’ style of not overpaying and pointing out why you were wrong.
F. We’re done here.
Look, you wrote
To answer this, I want to point at the New England Patriots as an example of a team that has put into practice what it takes to maintain a Super Bowl contending team over time. They have been willing to say goodbye to good players who thought they had to get paid more that didn’t fit into the team payroll system. You look at the Patriots over the last decade and you will see player after player who left the team when it got down to being able to fit them into the payroll system or breaking the payroll system.
And you failed to note how Tom Brady gets paid as much or more than anyone in the NFL. When talking about a “team payroll system,” that’s a pretty important part to factor in. Additionally, it’s not a valid comparison, aside from the broad and not-insightful point that teams shouldn’t bankrupt themselves for one player, when you consider that the Texans’ QB does not get paid anywhere near what Brady does.
Additionally, your QB-only distinction about the Patriots is similarly flawed. Logan Mankins has an average salary of $8.5M, highest in the league among guards. Vince Wilfork has an average salary of $8M, 7th highest among DTs. Gostkowski is the fourth-highest paid kicker in the NFL. The Patriots, like every smart team, have identified the PLAYERS (not just the QB) that they think are most important to their continued success, and they have been willing to pay a premium to keep those players. If you don’t buy that Mario is one of those players for the Texans, then fine, but stop trying to pretend like the Patriots wouldn’t (or the Texans shouldn’t) pay Mario big money if they felt like he was an important piece.
I have not yet begun to defile myself.
The Two-Day Hangover @ Battle Red Blog (2011) & SBN Houston (2010) | Twitter | About MDC
by MDC on Jan 23, 2012 10:50 AM CST up reply actions 5 recs
a) you proved my point
b) again, you proved my point
c) Papabear proved in his FanPost that Mario is not elite.
d) You think the Patriots are overpaying Brady? Ha! I lost track of how many Super Bowls he’s been in.
e) I stand by my stance that the Patriot’s don’t overpay. Look! They’re in the Super Bowl again!
f) Stick a fork in MDC, he’s done!
"All our lives we're taught to get in line. The ones who conform never discover." - Undrafted Free Agent and NFL Rushing Leader Arian Foster
Wow.
You are terrible at this.
A) No, I didn’t. I pointed out that your original argument was incorrect. But, since you seem incapable of working through this without some guidance, here’s some help: your rebuttal to my counter-argument should explain why praising the Patriots for not paying big money for players is illogical when, in fact, they have three guys in the top-five in terms of pay for the position (and a fourth guy in the top ten). If you really want to be persuasive, you should address how their “team payroll system” differs from any other good team who gives the larger contracts to the more important players.
B) Pro tip: Claiming that I proved your point when my answer directly contradicts the “point” that you previously made makes you look like a fool. Just sayin’. You asked how Mario’s existing contract was relevant and claimed that it had no bearing on his future contract. I explained the relevance by pointing out that the dollar amounts he received in the years prior to 2011 were more relevant to a discussion of what he’s likely to see going forward than was the dollar amount in 2011. How is this hard to grasp?
C) You mean the fanpost in which he concluded with “The fact is players with Mario Williams combination of strength, size, and athleticism just don’t come along very often” and “Mario Williams is a unique talent”? I’m not sure you understand what the word “proved” means.
D) Again, you are attempting to change the discussion. Your original comment said nothing about an exception for giant contracts for QBs. Now that other people have pointed out that Tom Brady gets paid a lot, you are saying “Tom Brady is great and deserves that money.” That may very well be true, but it does not fit with your original assertion.
E) By that rationale, a team that makes the Super Bowl is justified in paying any player any amount that they can fit under the cap, which (1) doesn’t fit with what you initially said and (2) is a great example of begging the question.
F) I’ll continue to wait for an actual response if you desire for this discussion to continue.
I have not yet begun to defile myself.
The Two-Day Hangover @ Battle Red Blog (2011) & SBN Houston (2010) | Twitter | About MDC
by MDC on Jan 24, 2012 9:05 AM CST up reply actions 4 recs
a) I don’t know if you have ever followed the Patriots or not. Judging by what you say, I would guess not. You know, they have been to multiple Super Bowls over the past decade. You know, when your team attains that level of performance year after year, your players are coveted by other teams. You know, this is the age of free agency. Have you ever heard of that? If you did, you would also know about the Patriots record in free agency over the past decade and we wouldn’t be having this discussion.
b) You keep comparing Mario to QBs. This point is a ridiculous point of comparison. I don’t know why you want to continue on that point except to continue to show your ignorance.
c) You think Tom Brady is overpaid, yet he has carried his team to the Super Bowl countless times, not to mention the personal awards he has won. No doubt Mario has talent. But, his talent has not made him an elite player. His performance has not translated to making this team a winner. Why would the team overpay him at the expense of improving the rest of the team? Mario has not finished the last two seasons on the field. There are a lot of concerns about Mario that eliminate him from being considered elite and demanding elite pay status. I predict he will have to concede to non-elite pay status to remain with the Texans. I also predict, he may not accept that, because he may be able to get greater pay with another team. As soon as the Mario and the team reach an impasse on pay and he is declared an unrestricted free agent, we can kiss him goodbye.
d) Tom Brady is god when it comes to QBs.
f) I think you are upset about the possibility of losing Mario and you have decided to take it out on me. That’s okay. I’m here for you. No matter what you say, my opinion that the Patriots have taken stances on free agents in the past and are a good example of how a team can do that, won’t change. You think that Tom Brady and other players on their team is a bad example. That is your opinion and I see that won’t change. I see the results of what they have accomplished. I think they have run their business smartly. They have the same restrictions and rules as the other 31 teams. Over the last decade, they have done it better than any other team. They have managed to keep the star players that keep their team competitive and filled the other positions at the same time. They have lost players to free agency who were coveted by other teams as a result of their success and they have managed to keep some. If they get their players to buy into their system of team, they stay, they perform and it works. That is the best argument I can make. It works. For you to say that it is a bad example is just ignorant of the results. But, keep on trying or just get over your hurt, whatever. Mario might still be a Texans player next season and be part of a winning team, or he might find a winner looking for that last cog that could put them over the top. It just may depend on how all the negotiations go. I think Rick Smith has the edge in negotiating a new contract. How Mario sees it, only Mario knows. Mario is an excellent, not elite, player coming off of two injury-prone seasons, in a nutshell. You look back at how the Patriots have dealt with players in those types of situations, and you may be able to form an opinion on how I might expect it to go. I expect Mario to accept “not elite” pay from the Texans or become an unrestricted free agent. The only other alternative might be franchising him and I don’t know if the Texans will do that. I would bet against it. Don’t get me wrong on Mario, though. I am not calling Mario a loser. I think I just have lower expectations of his impact on the team than you do.
"All our lives we're taught to get in line. The ones who conform never discover." - Undrafted Free Agent and NFL Rushing Leader Arian Foster
In summation, for others who don't want to have to sort through everything:
A)
Initial Argument (Made by Rip Jersey): Teams with excessive money tied up in just one player tend to not make the playoffs, and never make the Super Bowl.
Rebuttal (Made by MDC): The Patriots have excessive money tied up in just one player, and have several players who are paid highly in respect to their position, yet they’re in the Super Bowl.
Counter-Rebuttal (Made by Rip Jersey): "Tom Brady is god when it comes to QB’s." Gist of the argument is that no payment is too much for Tom Brady, so it’s not an excessive amount of money tied up in one player. It’s an appropriate amount of money tied up in one player.
B)
Initial Argument (Made by Rip Jersey): Mario Williams will either have to take a discount (so that excessive money isn’t tied up in just one player), he will not be re-signed by the Texans (so that excessive money isn’t tied up in just one player), or the Texans will be doomed to mediocrity (because excessive money is tied up in just one player).
Rebuttal (Made by MDC): Prior to the 2011 season, Mario had a very reasonable cap number (not an excessive amount of money). There was one season where Mario had a high cap number, and there is a decent chance we can get him to re-sign for a reasonable amount.
Counter-Rebuttal (Made by Rip Jersey): Mario isn’t a QB.
C)
Initial Argument (Made by MDC): Mario Williams is an elite player that makes everyone around him a better player. As a result, it makes sense to pay him a lot of money.
Rebuttal (Made by Rip Jersey): Mario Williams is not an elite player. Mario Williams has not singlehandedly willed the Texans to a Super Bowl, therefore, he is over-valued. He will either have to accept less money, or go to a different team.
D)
Initial Argument (Made by MDC): The Patriots are successful because Tom Brady is an elite QB, and because they have a very creative Head Coach. It has nothing to do with whether or not they pay an excessive amount of money to one player.
Rebuttal (Made by Rip Jersey): QB’s are different than other positions. Because Tom Brady is an elite QB, it is impossible to overpay him. Any amount that he earns is justified because of the results that he delivers.
Counter-Rebuttal (Made by MDC): That may be the case, but your original argument (See bullet point A) was that successful teams do not pay a lot of money to only one player. You have tried to restructure the point that you are arguing so that the facts better support you.
E)
Initial Argument (Made by Rip Jersey): The team is more important than any one player. The Patriots understand this, and that is why they are in the Super Bowl again.
Rebuttal (Made by MDC): The Patriots are built around Tom Brady (who is only one player). You’re point is not supported by the facts you present.
Counter-Rebuttal (Made by Rip Jersey): QB’s are different than other positions. The fact that the Patriots are in the Super Bowl means that he is not being over paid.
F)
Initial Argument (Made by MDC): Contrary to your initial argument (See bullet point A), the Patriots have paid an excessive amount of money to one player (and in doing so, they have neglected the defensive half of their football team), but they are still successful.
Rebuttal (Made by Rip Jersey): Spending an excessive amount of money is ok for a QB, as long as you are still successful. The Patriots are still successful, therefore, it’s ok.
Counter-Rebuttal (Made by MDC): You’re still changing your initial argument.
by Tailgate Andy on Jan 24, 2012 11:48 AM CST up reply actions 9 recs
ROFLSHICMAO
If everybody was somebody, then nobody would be anybody - Gilbert and Sullivan
by professortex on Jan 24, 2012 11:56 AM CST up reply actions
Haha! Good one, TA! I like it!
"All our lives we're taught to get in line. The ones who conform never discover." - Undrafted Free Agent and NFL Rushing Leader Arian Foster
Patience of Job,
rec’d for.
"How can an idiot be a policeman? Answer me that!"
-Chief Inspector Dreyfus
by FreedomRide on Jan 24, 2012 12:03 PM CST up reply actions
I may have accidentally flagged TA
but I meant to rec it, so if it was flagged then just ignore me. Very nice summation haha
by EnglishTexan on Jan 24, 2012 12:32 PM CST up reply actions
Nice.
And thank you for saving me the time.
I have not yet begun to defile myself.
The Two-Day Hangover @ Battle Red Blog (2011) & SBN Houston (2010) | Twitter | About MDC
This is why it's never good to have more than one lawyer in a fan discussion
Murphy’s 20th Military Law:
If it’s stupid, but it works, it ain’t stupid
"Fuck em all. Go Texans."
by The Night Owl on Jan 24, 2012 2:22 PM CST up reply actions
at the risk of starting WW III (all over again)
I would quibble with MDC a bit and rephrase as follows:
-Mario has elite talent, but hasnt been able to demonstrate it over the course of a season due to health issues and horrible coaching.
I really want him back because I think with him, we could develop into one of the greatest defenses of all time.
I would prefer to not give him much guaranteed money, but on the other hand, give him big rewards for certain performance criteria. Many of these criteria could be related to team stats and not just his personal stats. Another option would be to defer some of his salary into his retirement years.
I think the arguments are centric in nature, depending on whose shoes you are putting yourself in
I think MDC was putting himself in the shoes of passionate fan tinged with a touch of Mario, perhaps. I think I was putting myself in the shoes of less passionate fan tinged with a touch of Rick Smith. I’m sure we will see a lot of passion on this subject in the coming weeks, perhaps months. As time goes on, we may see other free agent negotiations coming into play.
"All our lives we're taught to get in line. The ones who conform never discover." - Undrafted Free Agent and NFL Rushing Leader Arian Foster
I just read your sig.
That is an awesome quote….somehow I never saw it before you borrowed it.
Just my $.02
Even duct tape can't fix stupid
I agree! That's a great quote from Arian!
He’s one special player, and I hope they make him happy this offseason.
Regarding Mario Williams, who is a real game changer when healthy: The U.S. Navy spends a ton of the budget on Aircraft Carriers, because they are absolute game changers when in the combat theater. If the carrier only has two out of four catapults operational or sinks to the ocean floor half way to the assigned deployment, it’s effectiveness is no longer worth the investment for the fleet.
False.
I was putting myself in the shoes of someone who saw that your initial argument was terribly flawed. Because it was, as demonstrated.
I have not yet begun to defile myself.
The Two-Day Hangover @ Battle Red Blog (2011) & SBN Houston (2010) | Twitter | About MDC
by MDC on Jan 24, 2012 7:15 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Oh, you mean you were being an asshole
"All our lives we're taught to get in line. The ones who conform never discover." - Undrafted Free Agent and NFL Rushing Leader Arian Foster
by Rip Jersey on Jan 24, 2012 9:16 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
No.
I was being factual, logical, and correct.
I have not yet begun to defile myself.
The Two-Day Hangover @ Battle Red Blog (2011) & SBN Houston (2010) | Twitter | About MDC
by MDC on Jan 24, 2012 10:31 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
I don't disagree with your alteration.
I don’t see how a person could, really. Though I suppose you could argue that we saw a decent picture of this talent in 2007 and 2008. http://www.nfl.com/player/mariowilliams/2495982/profile
I have not yet begun to defile myself.
The Two-Day Hangover @ Battle Red Blog (2011) & SBN Houston (2010) | Twitter | About MDC
by MDC on Jan 24, 2012 7:18 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
If we looked at just sacks
Then we might say Jason Babin is elite.
"All our lives we're taught to get in line. The ones who conform never discover." - Undrafted Free Agent and NFL Rushing Leader Arian Foster
Thankfully
I said nothing about “just sacks.”
I have not yet begun to defile myself.
The Two-Day Hangover @ Battle Red Blog (2011) & SBN Houston (2010) | Twitter | About MDC
You linked the players stat sheet that shows sacks and tackles
"All our lives we're taught to get in line. The ones who conform never discover." - Undrafted Free Agent and NFL Rushing Leader Arian Foster
Yes, I did.
How does that equate to “just sacks”?
(Hint: it doesn’t.)
I have not yet begun to defile myself.
The Two-Day Hangover @ Battle Red Blog (2011) & SBN Houston (2010) | Twitter | About MDC
Whatever you have to do to justify in your own mind that Mario is elite....
"All our lives we're taught to get in line. The ones who conform never discover." - Undrafted Free Agent and NFL Rushing Leader Arian Foster
You are either a complete troll
or you are absolutely incapable of debating an issue. Neither answer is particularly great.
I have not yet begun to defile myself.
The Two-Day Hangover @ Battle Red Blog (2011) & SBN Houston (2010) | Twitter | About MDC
by MDC on Jan 25, 2012 8:04 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Well since you mentioned the Pats
it’s worth noting that Peyton and Brady have been either the top or damn near it in player salaries, and both have won Super Bowls.
I think the correlation might be more with tying up stupid money in a marginal player equates to losing, rather than “having a player with a large contract prevents you from getting to the Super Bowl”.
Just a look at the last several years shows teams with some serious money invested at QB (Pats, Colts, Giants and Saints), pass rusher (Steelers, Giants) and other styles (like ARI with Dockett’s large contract). There seems to be many ways to skin this cat.
Hell, the Saints made it despite having a ridiculous sum of money tied up in Reggie Bush
by Jason Brown on Jan 22, 2012 10:17 AM CST up reply actions
It is true that the salary cap seems to favor QB emphasized teams
Since you invest so much in the QB, most of the rest of the team becomes more disposable. The result is that youhave to build a team tailored around your most expensive/valuable asset.
The result is that you get a high powered offense with a mediocre defense like the Pats, GB, and Indy (with Manning)
The Texans are a whole different beast, and if we can get our elites to take a pay cut for the sake of the team, we have the potential to field an incredible team.
If everybody was somebody, then nobody would be anybody - Gilbert and Sullivan
by professortex on Jan 22, 2012 2:03 PM CST up reply actions
A good point here.
When Brady and Manning are nearly 20mil against their teams cap themselves it’s hard to pay the payers around them.
Both teams used to be more team centric (at least the Pats did) but have become Brady/Manning or bust. It was big time bust for the Colts this year.
It’s really just about who you spend your big contracts on. Make the wrong decision and you’re burned.
Prediction: 11-5 AFC South champions.
There are always two sides to every three-sided coin
You have the player and you have the team. Some teams get it. Some players get it. And, sometimes the players and teams just don’t get it. Here’s a current article of a player who gets it.
"All our lives we're taught to get in line. The ones who conform never discover." - Undrafted Free Agent and NFL Rushing Leader Arian Foster
Reading above
The pats also have the best QB ever. That helps
@THEREALALLENOU on twitter - "The man, the verb, the legend" OU'd
by AllenOU on Jan 22, 2012 11:40 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
keep mario...
good article and comments.
oh if i could change my screen name it would be more of a "texasbob" type thing.
by Danpassurweenie on Jan 22, 2012 9:40 AM CST reply actions
Mario didn't save us from Reggie
The Saints didn’t use Reggie the right way, was called a bust, went to Miami, and had a better season than all of the Saints running backs combined.
by GorillaGladiator on Jan 22, 2012 12:25 PM CST reply actions
LOL
Reggie IS a bust, it’s not the Saints fault that he sucked.
by Bobbythegreat on Jan 22, 2012 12:29 PM CST up reply actions
Reggie wasn't worth picking that high, but he was a useful player for 5 years. That's not a bust.
Jamarcus Russell, Vernon Gholston now those are busts.
"How can an idiot be a policeman? Answer me that!"
-Chief Inspector Dreyfus
You have to take into account
where the player was drafted when you are trying to decide if they are a bust. If Reggie Bush was drafted in the 5th round, he wouldn’t be a bust, since he was the second player drafted, he is a bust. Players in the top ten are expected to be difference making starters, not 3rd string RB’s who return punts. VY and Matt Leinart were also busts that year, it was a bad draft for a lot of teams.
by Bobbythegreat on Jan 22, 2012 9:58 PM CST up reply actions
But Bush wasn't a just a 3rd string RB who returned punts.
He was a useful component in the Saints offense who created problems for defenses and had a knack for scoring in the red zone.
Not the Hall of Famer the Saints were hoping for, but not a bust, either.
"How can an idiot be a policeman? Answer me that!"
-Chief Inspector Dreyfus
by FreedomRide on Jan 22, 2012 10:07 PM CST up reply actions
He was a 3rd down
back that caught a few passes in the flat, he was completely irrelevant to the success of the team, you expect more from an early first round pick.
by Bobbythegreat on Jan 22, 2012 10:11 PM CST up reply actions
He played for the Saints for 5 seasons.
Not a smart pick.
Not a bust.
"How can an idiot be a policeman? Answer me that!"
-Chief Inspector Dreyfus
by FreedomRide on Jan 22, 2012 10:22 PM CST up reply actions
Less than 1000 yards from scrimmage
per year is a pretty good definition of a bust RB.
by Bobbythegreat on Jan 22, 2012 10:33 PM CST up reply actions
Great write up. Here's my analysis on some comparison and performance metrics the Texans should be considering...
THE TEAM
The Texans are no longer just looking for players to squeeze in 16 full games a season. This team is poised for a few years of playoff runs toward the Superbowl championship, and they need players who can produce up to 20 solid game performances every season to make that happen. Without Mario, the defense spread the sack numbers around quite a bit and produced well as an overall unit. Barwin had the best individual results.
2011 Texans Sacks Summary:
11.5 Barwin
6 Reed (3.5 playoffs = 9.5)
5.5 Watt (3.5 playoffs = 9)
6.5 Smith (1 playoffs = 7.5)
5 Williams
4 Cushing
2 Jamison
1 Cody
1 Mitchell (1 playoffs = 2)
.5 Braman
.5 Nading
.5 Nolan
MARIO’S INJURIES
Mario Williams has not even produced a 16 game season in the last two years, after going on injured reserve in 2010 (game 13) with a double sports hernia and in 2011 (game 5) with the torn pectoral muscle. In 2010, he played much of the season with the sports hernia despite the pain, but that wasn’t putting 100% of his talent in every play and it showed as some would criticize that he was “taking plays off”. In 2009 he suffered groin and shoulder injuries, but played through the pain and again suffered criticism. He also had a nagging and very painful plantar fasciitis condition in his right foot from his rookie season 2006, and again played through it but not up to expectations.
Injury Summary:
2011 – Game 5 I/R for torn pectoral muscle
2010 – Game 13 I/R for double sports hernia
2009 – groin and shoulder injuries limited 100% performance on all plays through 16 games
2008 – minor “nicks” but produced well overall through the 16 game season
2007 – best 16 game season of his career
2006 – nagging plantar fasciitis pain, but played through it for a "decent’ 16 game rookie season, but far from meeting expectations from a #1 overall pick
Here are his stats over his career thus far:
SACKING BY THE NUMBERS:
We can look at a variety of stats, but let’s be honest and say that we are focused on Mario as being the “sack man” for the team. In his best season of 2007, he had 14 sacks and tied with DeMarcus Ware for third best in the NFL. Patrick Kerney had 14.5 and Jared Allen was the league leader with 15.5 sacks that season.
MARIO NFL SACK RANKING vs OTHER SACK LEADERS:
2011 – Tied for 66th with 5 sacks (Jared Allen led the league with 22 sacks, DeMarcus Ware ranked 2nd with 19.5 sacks)
2010 – Tied for 24th with 8.5 sacks (DeMarcus Ware led the league with 15.5 sacks)
2009 – Ranked 16th with 9 sacks (Elvis Dumervil led the league with 17 sacks, Jared Allen ranked 2nd with 14.5, DeMarcus Ware was tied for 7th with 11 sacks)
2008 – Tied for 7th with 12 sacks (DeMarcus Ware led the league with 20 sacks)
2007 – Tied with DeMarcus Ware for 3rd with 14 sacks (Jared Allen led the league with 15.5 sacks)
2006 – Ranked 82nd with 4.5 sacks (Shawne Merriman led the league with 17, DeMarcus Ware was 9th with 11.5 sacks)
So in six seasons Mario has only finished in the TOP 5 one time where he was ranked (tied) for 3rd and only made the TOP 10 twice. He has never led the league in sacks. By the numbers, his agent has one hell of a challenge to compare him to DeMarcus Ware or Jared Allen who have both led the league twice in that same time frame over the last six seasons:
DeMarcus Ware: 2011 – 2nd, 2010 – 1st, 2009 - 7th, 2008 – 1st, 2007 – 3rd, 2006 - 9th
In the last six seasons, Ware has led twice, was 2nd once, and 3rd once. That’s TOP 3 four out of six seasons and TOP 10 all six seasons.
Jared Allen: 2011 – 1st, 2010 – 10th, 2009 - 2nd, 2008 - 5th, 2007 – 1st, 2006 – 30th
Allen has led twice, was 2nd once and 5th once. That’s TOP 5 four out of six seasons and TOP 10 five out of six seasons.
THE MONEY
If Mario Williams wants money similar to DeMarcus Ware and Jared Allen, he needs to produce like them. He certainly has the “potential” to produce similar results when healthy, but that’s really the elephant in the room isn’t it? Now no agent or player is going to sign up for any injury clauses or non-injury bonuses for obvious reasons. They could structure a performance bonus related to sacks per season since that is a key metric in the role the Texans have designed for him in Wade’s system. So even though Mario hasn’t measured up to Ware and Allen in terms of the last six years, they could use their performance numbers to design a bonus plan for Mario looking forward to the next six seasons. For example, a six year contract with these performance bonuses for each season paid in that season:
14 sacks = $500K
16 sacks = $500K
18 sacks = $500K
20 or more sacks = $500K
Lead the league in total sacks = $1M
These bonuses would be cumulative resulting in the potential for an overall $3M bonus structure based on performance. This addresses the injury issue since he’d have to be healthy to put up these kind of numbers. Since some teams in the past have been criticized by players for sitting them out to avoid performance bonuses, there would have to be some careful language structured to protect Mario should he be rested in the last few games of the season in preparation for playoffs. Something along the lines of “if the player is limited in on field access (being rested) in any of the last three regular season games, the performance results will persist based on the per game average over the course of that season.” So if he was averaging two sacks a game overall, his bonus structure would still provide him payment if that ratio hypothetically continued to the end of the season even if he is being sat out in anticipation of the playoffs.
Again, his agent has one hell of a job to work on to get Mario the kind of money Ware and Allen are making based on these numbers, but I could see them setting up a plan to protect the Texans cap situation while enforcing better on field performance from an athlete like Mario Williams and his “potential”.
by MeMongo on Jan 22, 2012 12:27 PM CST reply actions 6 recs
Nice. This was very well thought out.
I don’t think the stats fully tell the story of Mario’s effectiveness, especially when you take into account that he played on some very bad defenses. But cumulatively the stats paint a picture of a player who has a lot of potential that isn’t always realized. Demarcus Ware hasn’t always been on good defenses either, but it doesn’t seem to have hurt his individual results.
you’ve given us more food for thought.
by JBal on Jan 22, 2012 12:45 PM CST via Android app up reply actions
This is a very good post
in that it presents an actual counter-argument.
I think that you overlook a couple things, however:
1. In 2010, the pass defense was historically bad. It’s hard to get sacks when the other team’s QB doesn’t have to hold the ball for even 2 seconds.
2. Sacks are only part of the story; Mario is a very, very good run defender, while DeMarcus Ware is not, and guys like Antonio Smith were visibly better in 2011 when Mario was on the field.
3. Comparing Ware’s sacks to Mario’s sacks is misleading in that Ware was playing under Wade Phillips while Mario was playing under Richard Smith and Frank Bush.
I have not yet begun to defile myself.
The Two-Day Hangover @ Battle Red Blog (2011) & SBN Houston (2010) | Twitter | About MDC
You know you keep saying Mario makes the other players better..
Which is true was wondering if anybody had time to see how Good Ware makes the person next to him.
I agree we need to consider the "meta-data" variables of the system he's in and the other players around him
and how those other teammates are performing as he gets double teamed, etc.
Also true are his tackling ability and other contributions. I just focused this review on sack comparisons to help folks consider how he measured up against those other players who have lucrative contracts in similar roles.
Another area to consider in terms of individual performance and respective value to results, but very hard to measure, is the “high motor (effort) per play” factor. I’d submit that JJ Watt, Connor Barwin, Brian Cushing and Brooks Reed (not in any order) all rank very high in the “high motor (effort) per play” category, where as Mario Williams has obviously had great plays with high motor effort and several where it was on idle (usually due to injury limitations, pain, etc).
If Mario put out the same display of “high motor” intensity on every down in the way those other four players do, nobody would hesitate to cut the big check to keep him in this system.
Overall I do hope the Texans find a way to keep him without crushing our cap situation. We need Duane Brown, Arian Foster, etc.
VERY good point.
If Mario put out the same display of "high motor" intensity on every down in the way those other four players do, nobody would hesitate to cut the big check to keep him in this system.
If I have a gripe about Mario Williams, it is this.
I have not yet begun to defile myself.
The Two-Day Hangover @ Battle Red Blog (2011) & SBN Houston (2010) | Twitter | About MDC
by MDC on Jan 22, 2012 3:18 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I didn't want to be the first to mention that....
Because when it comes to paying him a normal amount of guaranteed money, I think the reward outweighs the risk. But if we’re talking about giving him a heavily guaranteed contract like Ware’s, I get a little bit nervous. Is Mario’s effort level worthy of a 55-60% guaranteed contract? I don’t know how self-motivated he really is.
I thought "high motor" only applied to white players?
Pretty sure that’s in the NFL announcer’s handbook.
Nice job on the numbers.
In a rational world, Mario could be signed for reasonable money, considering his history.
But this is the wonder world known as the NFL. It contains batshit crazy kingdoms like Oakland, Washington and Miami. “Rational” and “reasonable” are often not the operative concepts.
"How can an idiot be a policeman? Answer me that!"
-Chief Inspector Dreyfus
I think the Texans have the potential to make
one of the best powerhouses on both sides of the ball in a long time. Perhaps a legacy team.
If everybody was somebody, then nobody would be anybody - Gilbert and Sullivan
by professortex on Jan 22, 2012 2:08 PM CST up reply actions
How sad is it that Mario seemed to regress (at least in sacks) when the past D-coordinator was here?
Comparing 2007-2008 with 2009-2010.
Prediction: 11-5 AFC South champions.
Yep, and that supports the good point made by MDC that our dismal secondary and crap defensive scheme from Bush
didn’t give Mario a system he could get sack stats regardless of his health or high motor or lack thereof
excellent post, MeMongo!
#Texans2011 — Where reality and dreams collide!
~~ Fuzion
"This is a grown dog’s game. Ain’t no puppies out here." ~~ Cushing #56 to Antonio Smith #94
by BattleRedFan on Jan 22, 2012 6:11 PM CST up reply actions
I would like to see a lot of his bonus bonuses be tied to team performance
rather than individual statistics. For example, team sacks, points per game given up, yards per carry given up running, etc. Not that there shouldnt be some individual performance bonuses as well, but everyone says he makes the rest of the team better, and he should be rewarded for that too. In addition it rewards team play and team unity which is important I believe.
That's a great point
If Mario is being double or triple teamed and it opens up production for the rest of the defense, there is a way to consider team stats to enable individual bonuses too.
Regarding Mario Williams, who is a real game changer when healthy: The U.S. Navy spends a ton of the budget on Aircraft Carriers, because they are absolute game changers when in the combat theater. If the carrier only has two out of four catapults operational or sinks to the ocean floor half way to the assigned deployment, it’s effectiveness is no longer worth the investment for the fleet.
And they do it all the time in business's.
My yearly bonus is based on how well we as company did….well actually division of said company, but ya get the picture.
Just my $.02
Even duct tape can't fix stupid
If Rick Smith can't make a Mario deal work, how about
It might require a draft day trade to go up and get him, but if Mario’s gone Wade will need another producer at OLB.
Of course, taking him would make the job of finding the WR we need tougher, so it might be a case of which Coordinator has the most pull in the draft room.
"How can an idiot be a policeman? Answer me that!"
-Chief Inspector Dreyfus
I love the loyalty here
but I say let him walk. I’m a businessman and I look at this strictly form a business standpoint. He’s a great player with huge upside but he is only one man. The defense did great without him. Number 2 in the league to be exact. With all the contracts coming up this year and next, it would be more advantageous to use that money elsewhere. To me, locking down our secondary would have more of an impact than Mario anyway. I know I will draw scorn here but I just think some people need to detach the emotions about him a little bit.
I drink your milkshake Eli!!!!!!!
Who's advocating breaking the bank for Mario?
I’m not.
I do want him back. If he can be signed for big-but-not-huge money, great. The D will be much better with him than without him, so it’s worth bending the bank a little to keep him. I think Smith will be willing to do that, and it will be an OK business decision if he does.
"How can an idiot be a policeman? Answer me that!"
-Chief Inspector Dreyfus
just curious
If you could bring in a CB2 and 2 extra decent LB’s for the same amount of money it would take to keep Mario, would you?
I drink your milkshake Eli!!!!!!!
by TexasOilman84 on Jan 24, 2012 10:54 AM CST up reply actions
And the CB2 is an obvious upgrade? Mmm...yeah, I would do that deal.
Doubt you’re going to find that # of quality players for Mario money though.
The elephant in the room is the whacko NFL franchise that might be willing to over-pay for Mario. That would render the whole question moot.
"How can an idiot be a policeman? Answer me that!"
-Chief Inspector Dreyfus
by FreedomRide on Jan 24, 2012 12:09 PM CST up reply actions
Defense didn't exactly face a murderer's row of offenses
Rodgers, Brady, and Stafford headline next year’s opponents…quite a different story ahead.
There’s ways to have a manageable contract and you don’t let a premiere pass rusher and top-100 NFL player, who isn’t in his prime yet, walk. That’s a bad business decision.
"Lord, beer me strength."
by TexansDC on Jan 23, 2012 11:52 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Absolutely.
Anyone thinking Barwin and Reed are sufficient to get the job done at OLB virtually by themselves was not paying close attention last year.
Barwin as much as admitted they were getting gassed having to play every down. If Barwin had been injured, we would have been down to Braman at SLB. I love ’Shroom, but he is a long way from ready to start in the NFL.
The more I think about this, the more I hate the idea of Mario in another uniform next year. He’s our guy; he belongs on the Texans; we need him.
"How can an idiot be a policeman? Answer me that!"
-Chief Inspector Dreyfus
They played some of the best pass protecting offenses in football down the stretch.
PFO ranks Tennessee’s offensive line 2nd in adjusted sack rate. Cincy was 4th, Oakland was 5th, Atlanta was 7th, and Baltimore was 12th. Tampa and Cleveland even crack the top 16. For those pointing to a drop off once Mario was injured, keep in mind that we started off the season against a horrendous Indy offensive line with three new starters, the 30th-ranked Miami offensive line, a banged up Pittsburgh line, and New Orleans (against whom we didn’t get any pressure anyways).
by Nashmeister on Jan 24, 2012 10:39 AM CST up reply actions
Rodgers, Brady, and Stafford
would kill us anyway because we have a secondary with holes. Why not use his money to fill those holes? If he’s not willing to save the club money, why not let him walk? Look at the list of players in the last year of their contracts. If I had the choice of Mario or scattered pieces of the offense and defense, I would let Mario walk. Shit, to be honest I would franchise him and trade him on draft day.
I drink your milkshake Eli!!!!!!!
by TexasOilman84 on Jan 24, 2012 11:02 AM CST up reply actions
Agreed, that's a bad place for a hole
We need the secondary shored up!
Regarding Mario Williams, who is a real game changer when healthy: The U.S. Navy spends a ton of the budget on Aircraft Carriers, because they are absolute game changers when in the combat theater. If the carrier only has two out of four catapults operational or sinks to the ocean floor half way to the assigned deployment, it’s effectiveness is no longer worth the investment for the fleet.
Only problem with that is the holes that need filling
are chancy. We can’t guarantee that we will be able to fill them in FA, and drafting a defensive back is a gamble (see Kareem Jackson).
If everybody was somebody, then nobody would be anybody - Gilbert and Sullivan
by professortex on Jan 24, 2012 12:03 PM CST up reply actions
Wade thinks pass rush is the key to pass defense, ISTM.
He will want that to be priority 1, and will lobby hard for Mario.
As for franchising Mario and trading him, that seems extremely risky, to me. The team could find itself on the hook for a lot of money if no other franchise was willing to pick up that big contract, which I doubt one would be.
"How can an idiot be a policeman? Answer me that!"
-Chief Inspector Dreyfus
by FreedomRide on Jan 24, 2012 12:17 PM CST up reply actions
Although his recent injury history would make me very hesitant to take this option,
signing him to a deal with lower numbers but bigger guarantees (at least for injury, maybe not for skill) might be the only way to get him on a workable deal.
At the end of the day, we are better served letting him walk than overpaying for him.
"Life is tough, but it's tougher if you're stupid." -John Wayne
Death before dishonor, drinks before lunch.
Never send sheep to kill a wolf.
by The American Ronin on Jan 25, 2012 10:51 AM CST up reply actions
signing him to a deal with lower numbers but bigger guarantees (at least for injury, maybe not for skill) might be the only way to get him on a workable deal.
Perhaps; depends on how big the performance bonuses are. Couldn’t they get you into cap trouble, too?
At the end of the day, we are better served letting him walk than overpaying for him.
Of course.
.
"How can an idiot be a policeman? Answer me that!"
-Chief Inspector Dreyfus
by FreedomRide on Jan 25, 2012 12:55 PM CST up reply actions
"Couldn’t they get you into cap trouble, too?"
If they were classified as “likely to be earned,” yes.
I have not yet begun to defile myself.
The Two-Day Hangover @ Battle Red Blog (2011) & SBN Houston (2010) | Twitter | About MDC
A team that jumps out to me for this
is Tampa Bay. That number 4 pick would be a nice time to put Morris Cleiburne (sp) in a Texans uniform.
I drink your milkshake Eli!!!!!!!
You don't want to pay Mario
but you are willing to pay what it would cost to jump up to #4?
What the hell?
I have not yet begun to defile myself.
The Two-Day Hangover @ Battle Red Blog (2011) & SBN Houston (2010) | Twitter | About MDC
Is it that bad now with the new rookie structure?
Seems like a lower risk cost wise to move up in the draft and see if the rookie produces, than to overpay a FA who has incomplete seasons. Not sure what the new money for rookies looks like in top 5, 10, 15, 20 draft spots of the first round, but I doubt it is in the $70M+ range that Mario and his agent are probably seeking.
Regarding Mario Williams, who is a real game changer when healthy: The U.S. Navy spends a ton of the budget on Aircraft Carriers, because they are absolute game changers when in the combat theater. If the carrier only has two out of four catapults operational or sinks to the ocean floor half way to the assigned deployment, it’s effectiveness is no longer worth the investment for the fleet.
I was referring to
what it would cost in terms of draft picks PLUS the rookie salary. I was careless with my choice of words, in that implied only dollar amounts. My bad.
But, my point was that, in terms of building a team, I think paying Mario, assuming you can fit it under the cap, makes way more sense than jumping up 20 places in the first round.
I have not yet begun to defile myself.
The Two-Day Hangover @ Battle Red Blog (2011) & SBN Houston (2010) | Twitter | About MDC
Yup. Trading up for a possible replacement would be far riskier, IMO.
Haven’t there been some notable busts in recent years among high picks that were supposed to be pass-rushing monsters? Vernon Gholston comes immediately to mind.
"How can an idiot be a policeman? Answer me that!"
-Chief Inspector Dreyfus
Well, here's another scenario:
I agree that OLB depth is an issue if we don’t have Mario (though I think we still have two very capable starters). And I, like most, agree that WR is an issue. What if, rather than re-signing Mario, you stand pat and draft the best pass rusher on the board in the first round? Then, with some of the money Mario would have commanded, you make a run at Bowe or Meachem to shore up the offense.
You’ve added depth to a position of strength, added a premier player (at least, in the case of Bowe) at a position of weakness, and you’re likely spending $3-4 million less per year than you would have originally. Furthermore, a rotational pass rusher is more likely to contribute to the 2012 squad than a receiver (where there’s a bit of a learning curve, particularly in Kubiak’s offense).
What if, rather than re-signing Mario, you stand pat and draft the best pass rusher on the board in the first round? Then, with some of the money Mario would have commanded, you make a run at Bowe or Meachem
I wouldn’t do it if it we can keep Mario at something within reasonable money. We know Mario can play, and the draft is WR-rich. Not scoring the upgrade at #2 WR would be disappointing, but not a killer.
But if we drafted a bust at OLB and Barwin or Reed got hurt, we would be truly screwed. The D made it OK last year by the skin of its teeth at OLB, as Connor Badwin could tell you. I’d hate to count on that again.
"How can an idiot be a policeman? Answer me that!"
-Chief Inspector Dreyfus
Well, if you're planning around injuries...
I don’t know how you can justify paying Mario. And the same scenario could occur at WR. What if Andre gets hurt again and Dwight Jones is a bust?
The difference is that, given health among your starters, re-signing Mario relegates one capable NFL starter to a situational role with several hundred fewer snaps and elevates a rookie WR to a starting role that he might not be ready for. Signing Bowe or Meachem and drafting an OLB gives you an every-down starter at WR in his prime and allows your young OLB to rotate in and keep your starters fresh as he develops.
"What if Andre gets hurt again and Dwight Jones is a bust?"
IMO that’s not as bad a situation as being down to having to start Braman at OLB.
"How can an idiot be a policeman? Answer me that!"
-Chief Inspector Dreyfus
by FreedomRide on Jan 26, 2012 12:38 PM CST up reply actions
You wouldn't necessarily be starting Braman in that scenario.
You’d have a first-round OLB to work with as well. There’s going to be depth in either case. The difference is that you save cap room, get more production out of Brooks Reed, and don’t force a rookie into an every-down role.
Yeah, but in our scenarios the rookie's a bust, remember?
This thing is getting too convoluted.
"How can an idiot be a policeman? Answer me that!"
-Chief Inspector Dreyfus
Oh, whupps.
I seem to have forgotten the premise. I need Tailgate Andy to sum things up for me.
Go a few more posts,
and change your argument as it suits you, all the while maintaining that you’re winning the argument, and I might.
by Tailgate Andy on Jan 27, 2012 8:19 AM CST up reply actions 2 recs
I was referring to a trade
of mario for their #4 pick. just a straight up wheel and deal. If not Tampa then with Minnesota. From all accounts both are looking for a pass rusher with their first pick. Minnesota has the cap space and how could Mario say no to signing to play with Jared Allen. We use that 3rd or 5th pick to grab Cleiburne as CB2 then use our 26th pick to bring on Dwight Jones. Then we let Wade use the 2nd and 3rd round picks to shore up the LB’s. 4th and 5th we get BPA or shore up that O-line. Cleiburne and Jones in the first round is worth Mario I think. Instantly we are a better team. Thoughts?
I drink your milkshake Eli!!!!!!!
by TexasOilman84 on Jan 25, 2012 1:59 PM CST up reply actions
I still don't see how you make a sign-and-trade work for an UFA.
"How can an idiot be a policeman? Answer me that!"
-Chief Inspector Dreyfus
Franchise him to get leverage.
Then hope to god Tampa or Minnesota can keep paying him like that for 5 or 6 years which both can theoretically do.
I drink your milkshake Eli!!!!!!!
by TexasOilman84 on Jan 25, 2012 10:47 PM CST up reply actions
Ah that makes sense and I agree. It would be way too many picks to move up.
Regarding Mario Williams, who is a real game changer when healthy: The U.S. Navy spends a ton of the budget on Aircraft Carriers, because they are absolute game changers when in the combat theater. If the carrier only has two out of four catapults operational or sinks to the ocean floor half way to the assigned deployment, it’s effectiveness is no longer worth the investment for the fleet.
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