What is Mario Williams? - An Opinion
Is Mario elite? Is he worth a huge contract? Does Mario make the other players around him better? These are all questions Texans fans ask and answer every day on this blog. Some might call it a debate. But, when it comes down to it, it doesn't matter what we think, when it comes to Mario's contract negotiations. It matters to the parties involved, Mario and Rick Smith, along with Mario's agent, Texans' owner Bob McNair and a multitude of others in bits and parts. But, that doesn't stop us from forming opinions and getting all emotional about it. That is why I am writing this.
The above questions really are a combination of objectivity and subjectivity. To try to answer these questions, can we look at the most recent Mario? Shouldn't that be the closest thing to what we might get in the near future? "Yes" say some, and "no" say others. I am writing this, so I will say "yes" and that is what I will look at.
I know that Mario has finished the last two seasons on the IR list. That is a strike against Mario, because that means I am filling his spot on the roster with another player who is not the designated starter. The only good part about this point is that another player is getting starter minutes and experience. But, that isn't a positive for Mario.
The question has arisen, does Mario make the players around him better? To answer that question, what do I look at? I could look at team record with-Mario vs. team record sans-Mario. Wouldn't that be an indicator of how he impacts the players around him? Maybe. Let's just look at 2011, for starters, and see what it says. In 2011, Mario played in 5 games. In those five games, the Texans beat a lousy Colts team; beat a lousy Dolphins team; lost to an excellent Saints team on the road; beat a good Steelers team at home; and lost to a Raiders team at home; going 3 and 2, one game over .500. Over the next 11 games of the season, the Texans went 7 and 4, including a 7 game win streak, and along the way they lost starting QB Matt Schaub, as they limped into the playoffs. Few would argue that if not for the Matt Schaub injury and injuries to others, this team may have gone 8 and 3 or better over that period. I should also point out that three of those losses came with either rookie T.J. Yates or journeyman Jake Delhomme QBing. But, it is what it is and the Texans did go three games over .500 over those last 11 games. I am looking at that and I am not seeing any indication that the team fell off as a result of losing Mario Williams.
Some will argue that Mario was learning the new OLB position in the new Wade 3-4, so how can you use those 5 games? Well I can because, in fact, for every argument made that Mario was learning a new position in a new D, I could counter with the argument that the player who took Mario's place in the lineup was a rookie who was also transitioning to OLB for the first time.
In fact, if Mario is the player who makes everyone around him better, you would expect there to not just be a falloff because he was not in, but you might expect the learning curve to go back down to zero because a rookie is coming into the lineup to take his place. Well, I don't see that. How can I say that? Is it as simple as wins and losses? Maybe, maybe not, so let's look at some other team measurements and see how they compare.
In the first five games, the defense gave up an average of 19.0 points per game. In the next 11 games sans-Mario, the defense gave up an average of 19.4 points per game. That comparison doesn't favor the with-Mario Texans or the sans-Mario Texans.
How about yards by the opposing offense? In the first five games with-Mario, the defense gave up an average of 314.0 yards per game. In the sans-Mario last 11 games, the defense gave up an average of 263.7 yards per game. That means the defense gave up 19.1% more yards per game with-Mario than sans-Mario.
How about first downs by the opposing offense? In the first five games with-Mario, the defense gave up an average of 18.2 first downs per game. In the sans-Mario last 11 games, the defense gave up an average of 16.3 first downs per game. That means the defense gave up 11.7% more first downs per game with-Mario than sans-Mario.
Someone might complain that the Saints game skews all the stats and makes them irrelevant. Well, if I don't consider the Saints game at all and throw it away, then take a look at the other four games with-Mario, only in one of those games did the defense hold the opposing offense to fewer yards than the average for the sans-Mario defense. I am not making this up for the purpose of saying that Mario sucks, folks. These are the stats for the Texans playing in the Texans Wade 3-4 defense with-Mario in his OLB position and sans-Mario in the same defense.
Based on the above, I think it is reasonable to conclude that Mario neither is elite or makes the other players better. It is also reasonable to hold to that belief that he is elite and he makes the other players better if you choose to, because these are just numbers and this is a team. It is not an individual sport by any means. There are players that impact games in different ways. There are players with certain skills and there are players with certain deficiencies.
Mario is a super athlete, no doubt. But, he is a pass-rusher with limited moves. After six seasons it would have been nice to see him develop something other than a bull-rush move. He has a great bull-rush, but the lack of any other move makes him predictable and easier to scheme against. Elite athleticism can overcome some deficiencies but it does not always equate to being an elite football player.
So, does Mario make the players around him better? I'm sure he does. But, if you look at team wins and team defensive stats, I cannot say that is true to any great extent. Is Mario an elite player? I can't say he is. I love Mario on this team. I wish he was there right to the finish. I think the team could only have benefited if he had not been injured. But, he was injured and the team went on. The team went on to the playoffs without Mario. If I was Bob McNair and Rick Smith, that would be in my mind when addressing Mario's contract negotiations. This team is bigger than the player. The team is bigger with the player, certainly, but the team is also pretty damn big without him. So, where does that leave us? I think contract demands should be tempered.
This is one person's opinion and that's all it is. And, what do they say about opinions? Opinions are like assholes, everyone has one. So, fire away.
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Great review and opinion. Rec'd!
One non-statistical observation I made through the season after losing Mario was I think it actually made it hard for the other teams to prepare against our defense without him on the field. When he is in the line-up, he often gets double teamed and plays are set away from him. Without such an obvious target to scheme around, they have no idea where the attack is coming from on any given down.
Whether we keep him or lose him, it was actually a huge benefit for our front seven to get two thirds of a season without him to realize their own individual potential within the system. This gives Wade and staff a great variety in terms of breaking protection (with or without Mario) going forward.
If the guy wasn’t gimped four out of six seasons, I’d say he’s worth the money. Otherwise he’s a damned expensive weapon on the sidelines wearing sweats and a ball cap, or easing up on plays as he struggles with the pain. I’d love to keep him, but I’m not convinced he can stay injury free to deliver a DeMarcus Ware or Jared Allen performance over the next five to six years.
Regarding Mario Williams, who is a real game changer when healthy: The U.S. Navy spends a ton of the budget on Aircraft Carriers, because they are absolute game changers when in the combat theater. If the carrier only has two out of four catapults operational or sinks to the ocean floor half way to the assigned deployment, it’s effectiveness is no longer worth the investment for the fleet.
Rec'd
Agree 100%.
Regardless of how great a player Mario is (I personally think he’s always been a tad bit overrated), we have to realize that it’s just not that simple. It’s tough to justify giving a potentially cap-crushing deal to an injury-prone, one-dimensional player when the 2011 results don’t really justify his value to the team.
It’s a tough decision, but McNair, Smith, and Kubiak are paid to make tough decisions.
All I ask is that they use their heads, not their hearts, to make it.
Kubiak believes in you
So, does Mario make the players around him better? I’m sure he does. But, if you look at team wins and team defensive stats, I cannot say that is true to any great extent.
ISTM that you have neglected to consider 2 major factors when comparing defensive stat’s pre- and post-Mario: the improvement of rookie JJ Watt at DE, and the general improvement of the defense as the players learned Wade’s system and Wade added more components.
That was a brand new defense playing in the first four ans a half games with Mario. There were many players in it who were new or playing new positions. As the season progressed, it gelled and JJ Watt grew into a monster. It is unknowable from the information at hand just how good Wade’s D could have been if Mario had been there the whole way. Remember, he was learning a new position, too.
"How can an idiot be a policeman? Answer me that!"
-Chief Inspector Dreyfus
by FreedomRide on Jan 26, 2012 6:01 PM CST reply actions 3 recs
NUTT'D
"All our lives we're taught to get in line. The ones who conform never discover." - Undrafted Free Agent and NFL Rushing Leader Arian Foster
[Wade makes the players around him better] > [Mario makes the players around him better]
I’d love to see Mario in Wade’s system a full season. It’s really horrible Mario didn’t get to deliver a full season of performance last year, because that will likely be the reason we lose him.
Regarding Mario Williams, who is a real game changer when healthy: The U.S. Navy spends a ton of the budget on Aircraft Carriers, because they are absolute game changers when in the combat theater. If the carrier only has two out of four catapults operational or sinks to the ocean floor half way to the assigned deployment, it’s effectiveness is no longer worth the investment for the fleet.
I think his point is
Just that when Mario left it is certainly ok to say that Brooks Reed was able to “maintain” the level of production Mario had shown so far. Who is to say that Mario would not have gotten to a DWare level? The fact is that Mario has physical tools that the Brooks Reed doesnt have. The first six years of the boring bull rush were with boring DC’s at the helm. I agree with a previous poster:
I want the most feared pass rush in the league. What happens by having a rotation of impact players and a smart DC. Check and check.
Rectum!? Damn near killed 'em!!!
by theSpaceCityKid on Jan 30, 2012 8:26 AM CST up reply actions
I think we all want the most fearsome pass rush in the league, no doubt
If price was no object, all our players would be well-paid by league standards. While my FanPost may seem to downgrade Mario, to some, I love Mario and I want him on the Texans. But, I also feel, he is really a cog in the wheels of this defense. The best proof of that is how well the defense went onto a successful season of growth and performance last year without Mario. Yes, we can all just imagine what it would have been like with Mario. But, at what cost? I guess this is where many of us diverge; trying to put a dollar value within the framework of the NFL pay structure for Mario’s services over a long-term contract. It’s a balancing act that we are all trusting Rick Smith and company to figure out. The balancing act also has to consider the fact that Mario Williams may not be signed again and the defense goes forward without him. That is not the end of the world, because as we saw last season, the defense elevated itself to number 2 without Mario. We all wonder if number 1 was in reach and if that would have made the difference in the season, the playoff seedings, and eventually, possibly getting to the AFC Championship game and then seeing where the cards would fall. Who knows.
Yes, it would be nice to see the team’s chances next season with Mario. To fit him in, does that mean the team has to let go other key players? How replaceable are those players, if they do? The name Kevin Walter has been thrown out there. He’s an offensive player, so he is on the other side of the ball. He is one-half of Kubiak’s vaunted one-two punch for WR2. Walter makes a lot for a blocking WR2, but he did step up and help win some games when AJ was out. So, it is not like there is a guy on the street waiting to take his place. And, if Walter is released, does that make Jacoby the sole WR2? Are we hoping for that?
Lots goes into it. I trust Rick Smith and company to make those decisions. I have tempered my value of Mario Williams and that is why I wrote this FanPost. Some agree, Some go the other way by valuing Mario more than I do. Some may value Mario less than I do.
"All our lives we're taught to get in line. The ones who conform never discover." - Undrafted Free Agent and NFL Rushing Leader Arian Foster
Keep in mind...
It’s not Mario vs. Brooks Reed. It’s Mario vs. Barwin, and Barwin has all the physical tools to become an elite OLB. He’s faster and more agile than Mario in every way, and he has more than enough size to play the position.
by Nashmeister on Jan 30, 2012 11:49 AM CST up reply actions
Then the argument becomes Mario v Reed
If Barwin solidified his role as a starting LB on his way to a pro bowl level, then doesnt the argument become “Who will play the other side?”?
Rectum!? Damn near killed 'em!!!
by theSpaceCityKid on Jan 30, 2012 11:59 AM CST up reply actions
In a way.
Barwin solidified his role as a damn good WOLB. At SOLB, though, he was just adequate. As somebody mentioned the other day, he’ll be up for a new contract soon, too. Whereas they’ll have Reed on the cheap for several more years. If you re-sign Mario, you’re probably going to end up letting Barwin walk rather than paying him to play SOLB.
by Nashmeister on Jan 30, 2012 12:23 PM CST up reply actions
Why define those roles so firmly?
Maybe Mario blitzes, maybe Connor does, maybe they both do, maybe they both don’t, maybe they switch sides a lot….lots of unpredictability there.
"Lord, beer me strength."
I think Mario is an above-average player, but not "elite".
Then again, he’s been working for some pretty vomitous defensive coordinators over the years. I’d like to see what he could do in Wade’s defense over a full year, but his price might be too high to justify keeping him around.
Here’s what Lance Z. said about Mario making other players better
A sharp tongue is the only edged tool that grows keener with constant use.--Washington Irving
As usual, an excellent article by Lance Z.
I dug around for that the last time somebody claimed that Mario made Antonio Smith better, but couldn’t find it. This paragraph sums it up nicely:
Antonio Smith is the fastest lineman off the snap on the entire team. That quickness and aggressiveness is what gives him the title of best defensive lineman on the team over the last three years. This isn’t tag-team wrestling, this is big guys smashing into each other and the best man on that particular snap wins. To try and point out some type of decline for Antonio Smith since Mario has been out based on sack totals is ludicrous. For one, Smith has never posted high sack totals because of the position he plays. He’s a disruptor and pocket collapser. Go back and watch the Ravens game and see how much pressure Smith put on Flacco all game long. No Mario and yet the defense was able to keep Flacco dancing.
As for the title “elite”… It’s an arbitrary term that gets thrown around as if there’s some sort of cut-off point. And if we’re calling Mario “elite”, then the term isn’t all that exclusive, because there are about 20 pass rushers in the league who have matched his production, particularly in recent years.
by Nashmeister on Jan 26, 2012 7:56 PM CST up reply actions 3 recs
Excellent post, opinion and reference. Rec'd
Regarding Mario Williams, who is a real game changer when healthy: The U.S. Navy spends a ton of the budget on Aircraft Carriers, because they are absolute game changers when in the combat theater. If the carrier only has two out of four catapults operational or sinks to the ocean floor half way to the assigned deployment, it’s effectiveness is no longer worth the investment for the fleet.
I should have given my definition of "elite"...
because it IS arbitrary, for the most part. I know stats aren’t everything, but I’d say if a player finishes in the top 5 every year in relevant (for his position) stats he would be “elite”. And, if we’re using that definition, Mario isn’t elite. Which is basically just a roundabout way of saying that if we have to sacrifice a player in the offseason because of money issues I think it would be less painful to lose Mario than (for example) Foster.
A sharp tongue is the only edged tool that grows keener with constant use.--Washington Irving
by Foster Child on Jan 29, 2012 12:37 PM CST up reply actions
I like him
But with Brooks Reed and Connor Barwin coming on strong I don’t know that I would miss him.
Carpe Diem
What if one of those guys got hurt?
"...Andre, thank you for knowing when being a consummate professional needs to give way to just beating some mouthy punk's bitch ass. Because that was awesome. - MDC
"I like to get out to Vegas at least once a year for a heavyweight title bout. Because that's basically like the Oscars for hookers." - Sterling Archer
'Zackly.
Texans are dangerously thin at OLB if Mario leaves.
"How can an idiot be a policeman? Answer me that!"
-Chief Inspector Dreyfus
A few points...
First, you shouldn’t hold Mario’s IR stint last year on him. He played most of the season with a serious injury and gutted it out for the team until they were mathematically eliminated. That’s a team player. This year’s IR stint was the team’s decision since Mario could’ve played again in December/January.
Second, you criticize the team’s wins by saying Miami and Indy were weak, but you don’t apply the same logic to the 7-4 record where Houston only faced 2 decent teams. They weren’t playing worldbeaters. If you’re going to criticize one opponent then you should do the same for all 13.
Third, you compare the team with and without Mario, but you don’t mention the fact that the defense was learning and adding more to the playbook as the season went on. Without an offseason, the defense started out simple and bare. It’s not Mario’s fault the lockout set the learning curve back.
It’ll be a tricky negotiation, but it’s not as simple as looking at 2011 and figuring it out.
"Lord, beer me strength."
by TexansDC on Jan 26, 2012 9:08 PM CST reply actions 4 recs
I agree on the I/R thing, because the NFL has a completely crappy I/R program
He was all stud playing hurt like that, and he never complains. On the other hand, were we getting the best performance on every play while he gutted it out? I wish this guy could play healthy under Wade a full year. That’s the part of me that hopes he stays at least one more season to prove that out.
"Second, you criticize the team’s wins by saying Miami and Indy were weak, but you don’t apply the same logic to the 7-4 record where Houston only faced 2 decent teams."
Exactly this. I mean, I’m all for discussing the issue, but demonstrating that kind of bias from the start is not a great way to frame the debate.
I have not yet begun to defile myself.
The Two-Day Hangover @ Battle Red Blog (2011) & SBN Houston (2010) | Twitter | About MDC
by MDC on Jan 27, 2012 8:49 AM CST up reply actions 4 recs
I mean we destroyed teams in that 7 game win streak
but most of them sucked.
Watch me all in flames, on a butterfly I ride
If Mario was there, we would have won 8 of those 7 games.
"All our lives we're taught to get in line. The ones who conform never discover." - Undrafted Free Agent and NFL Rushing Leader Arian Foster
by Rip Jersey on Jan 28, 2012 7:56 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Completely wrong, stats-wise
We would’ve won 10 of those 7 games by 45 points. C’mon, man!
A sharp tongue is the only edged tool that grows keener with constant use.--Washington Irving
by Foster Child on Jan 29, 2012 12:38 PM CST up reply actions
First, to reply to your concerns, Mario’s injury was a torn pectoral at the beginning of the year. I sure can say it is on him. He could not play for an extended amount of time, to say the least. How you can say it is not on him is beyond logic. He was injure. He could not play. Whether he could make it back during the season for one or two games is inconsequential to the entire point, which is, he was injured and could not play, which is a very key basis of getting put on IR. If you want to argue over the point or what IR is and what it isn’t, have at it, TDC. Missing games is missing games. Being injured is being injured. Who’s fault is it? I’m pretty sure if you are injured and can’t play, then somewhere in there, the player who is injured is involved.
Second, to reply to your concern that the teams the Texans beat without Mario weren’t worldbeaters, that is true. However, the Texans played and beat two division rivals on the road during that stretch. They played and beat the wildcard Bengals on the road. They also beat the playoff hopeful Falcons at home with a rookie QB. So, to say that it they weren’t playing worldbeaters, sure, I accept you pointing that out. And, I accept your criticism that I didn’t try to criticize them. Should I have described them as not being worldbeaters? I guess you did that for me.
Third, you said I made no mention of “the fact that the defense was learning and adding more to the playbook as the season went on.”
Some will argue that Mario was learning the new OLB position in the new Wade 3-4, so how can you use those 5 games? Well I can because, in fact, for every argument made that Mario was learning a new position in a new D, I could counter with the argument that the player who took Mario’s place in the lineup was a rookie who was also transitioning to OLB for the first time. In fact, if Mario is the player who makes everyone around him better, you would expect there to not just be a falloff because he was not in, but you might expect the learning curve to go back down to zero because a rookie is coming into the lineup to take his place. Well, I don’t see that. How can I say that? Is it as simple as wins and losses? Maybe, maybe not, so let’s look at some other team measurements and see how they compare.
I think I did mention the learning curve. Did I make mention of it exactly as you wanted me too? Maybe not, but I forgot to consult you prior to posting. Sorry. You concluded that thought with “It’s not Mario’s fault the lockout set the learning curve back.” I agree, it’s not Mario’s fault. There’s a lot involved in Mario’s situation that is not Mario’s fault. So what? Mario’s situation is Mario’s situation and he has to live with it whether it’s his fault or not. This is not personal. It’s business. Everyone loves Mario. He is a gentleman. He is a dynamic player. His situation is his situation. To look at the negotiations and say it’s so-and-sos fault, it seems you are completely forgetting that this is business.
"All our lives we're taught to get in line. The ones who conform never discover." - Undrafted Free Agent and NFL Rushing Leader Arian Foster
I'll frame the IR discussion with help from Manning and Brisiel
The team did not IR them after their fractured legs. The team gave them the opportunity to come back and play while they missed games. Mario could’ve been in the same situation, but the team IR’d him. His pec tore, but it was the team’s decision to IR…while they didn’t do that
As far as the business goes, in business you retain your best assets. Mario’s that kind of asset – a top-100 NFL player, as seen by his peers, a former Pro Bowler and first-team All-Pro, a guy that demands the extra blocker, and a team-player, as demonstrated by playing through injury until the team was mathematically eliminated.. My opinion isn’t a personal one. The best business is to keep your quality players. He is that.
"Lord, beer me strength."
No doubt he is an asset and it is the Texans interest to do what they can to keep him
Okay, so your opinion isn’t a personal one. I got it. And the team should just retain their best assets. Okay. Very good advice. I should have just said exactly that from the start. “My opinion isn’t a personal one” and “you retain their best assets”; okay, I’m good. And, because Mario is that and it’s not a personal opinion, he is one of the “quality players,” it is best business to keep him. Okay, we’re straight, man.
If a player plays through pain until the team is mathematically eliminated and then goes on IR to undergo surgery, I guess he was IRed? But, it is best business to keep your quality players so we shouldn’t mention that he was IRed, unless you also mention that he also played the season in pain and required surgery after the team was eliminated.
And, this season, because the team didn’t IR Manning or Brisiel due to their leg fractures, and they had previously IRed Mario due to his torn pec, which are two different kinds of injuries, well that has to be considered when forming an opinion that isn’t a personal one. Because, as a result, he didn’t have an opportunity to return, so, that proves that he is one of the best assets.
I won’t say that the Texans maneuvered against Mario and for Manning and Brisiel, therefore that should work in favor of Mario in some way. Mario was indeed injured. And, Manning and Brisiel were healthy at the time of Mario’s injury, if I remember correctly. Brisiel is a free agent, I think, so that may have an impact in some way and vice versa.
But, I fail to see how the fact that Brisiel not going on IR vs Mario going on IR are related in any other way. I won’t say they are, except that their contract negotiations are going on at the same time.
And, I won’t say that the Texans purposely put Mario on IR so that later when they are negotiating they can refer back to that as a negotiating ploy? This doesn’t sound like good business practice from a publicity point of view, so I can’t imagine that is the point you are making.
Are you simply saying that at the time of Mario’s injury that the team made a bad decision and they shouldn’t have put him on IR? I could see that, but I fail to see how that impacts his contract negotiation, because he was injured and unable to play.
Maybe you’re taking issue with the fact that I flagrantly threw the term IR around, when I really should be saying Mario suffered an injury and saying he was in IR makes people think that it’s worse than it really was. He should have been out for maybe 9 or 10 regular season games and not for 11 regular season games plus the playoff game. That is a good point but I’m not sure how much it is worth in the contract negotiations. I think we already agree he is one of the “quality players” on the Texans.
Is that it? You don’t like me using the term IR, because there is a report that Mario could have played in one or more of the last games of the season? Yes, that is an issue, TDC. Did Mario really have to miss 9 games or 11 this season? I don’t rightly know. Should I edit what I said about Mario finishing the last two seasons on IR? Should I say, “Mario finished the last two season on IR, but two seasons ago, he played through pain until the team was eliminated, then he went and had surgery and last season he tore his pec and was placed on IR, but there is a report out there that he could have played in the last one or two games and he should have only missed 9 or 10 games and not the 11 games plus the playoff game that he ended up missing?” Perhaps, we can all copy-paste that statement into every post going forward so there is no misstatement about our opinions that are not personal about Mario.
Okay, now that we have established that Mario finished the last two seasons on IR (copy-paste statement here) and he is a quality player, where do we differ?
"All our lives we're taught to get in line. The ones who conform never discover." - Undrafted Free Agent and NFL Rushing Leader Arian Foster
RE: Putting Mario on I/R
I’m sure it was based on the prognosis of his ability to recover and be able to enter a game before the end of the season.
On the other hand, it might have also saved the team 50% of his salary this season if I understand the new rules correctly. I doubt they would admit this if it were true, and it is more about the best estimation of his recovery time.
the only problem i have with all of this stats you through out
is the fact he only played 5 games. and its a well known fact that the defense played lights out the last part of the year, well after mario had been injured. TBH, the sample size isnt really a good look at it- he also averaged a sack a game and was on pace for 16 sacks. does that mean he would have got them? probably not. but because he wasnt in the lineup, we cant say for certain that he wouldnt have. what if he had been there the entire season? 16 sacks a season is damn good- and if he had 16 sacks, chances are the defense around him is player better because of it. chances are the defense gives up fewer yards, fewer first downs, etc. if he was in, chances are all of those statistics mean nothing. i think the better stats after mario has more to do with the defense gelling over the year and finally beginning to understand the scheme, concepts, coverages, etc. more than it has to do with mario being out.
5 games is kinda hard to judge him by. is he elite? i dont know the answer to that. but i dont think it would be a stretch to say this defense would be better with him than without him. especially depth wise. imagine mario, JJ, ninja assassin, demeco, barwin, cush and reed on the field all at the same time. what would opposing offenses do then, besides shit their pants? id posit that that 7 right there would cause all kinds of fits, regardless of what mario does.
id like mario to stay. a full season will tell us much more than 5 games will. if he doesnt flourish like we thought, trade him. if he does, there ya go.
Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind.
Albert Einstein, "Science, Philosophy and Religion: a Symposium", 1941
16 sacks would have been nice.
But what did Barwin have, 12? And he spent six games playing SOLB. According to PFO, the Texans were basically tied for 2nd in adjusted sack rate last season. You’re gonna be hard-pressed to improve upon that pass rush, and quite frankly, you don’t really need to. They picked up nine sacks in two postseason games against teams that protect their QBs well.
but i dont think it would be a stretch to say this defense would be better with him than without him.
Of course the defense would be better with Mario. Nobody is arguing that. But how much better? The phrase, “if it ain’t broken, don’t fix it” comes to mind.
Let’s look at it this way: the Texans can’t realistically franchise Mario because of the cap hit. If they wanted to bring him back, they’d have to negotiate a long-term deal. I’m not sure if there will be an exclusive negotiating period in 2012, but in terms of dealing with Mario, the only advantage that the Texans have with him is familiarity. By that token, is there any compelling reason he should be treated differently than any other free agent in the league? The only real difference is a perk: a potential 3rd-round compensatory pick if he walks(or did the league do away with those?).
If you’re treating him like any other free agent, then that means the first step in the process is evaluating your team needs. If Mario had been drafted by the Bengals, for instance, and he was a free agent this season, would you sign him? Coming off of a season where you had a great pass rush and a double-digit sack guy at WOLB, I find it hard to believe that anybody would say “yes” to that.
by Nashmeister on Jan 26, 2012 10:19 PM CST up reply actions
Interesting angle
If Mario had been drafted by the Bengals, for instance, and he was a free agent this season, would you sign him? Coming off of a season where you had a great pass rush and a double-digit sack guy at WOLB, I find it hard to believe that anybody would say "yes" to that.
This could be the best quote/question on the topic around Mario. What if the Texans never had him and he was coming up as a free agent on another team where he was drafted (like the Bengals) and had exactly the same stats and injury history right now. Coming off this season with the defense in this situation ranked #2 in the NFL with several hot rookies and stud vets looking to do even better as a unit next season, would we drop $70M+ type money to get Mario here?
Honestly? I don’t think so.
We FINALLY went out and picked up a big time corner in Johnathan Joseph to fill a glaring CB situation and only spent $48.75M over 5 years with only $23.5M guaranteed. We are not looking at a glaring hole on the DE or OLB positions. Depth is smart, but this unit can excel as is with these starters.
$70M+ would be better invested in contracts for: Foster, Myers, Dreessen, a new WR and a NT.
I’d love to see us keep Mario for the right price, but it isn’t above $60M. He can probably go back to a 4-3 DE and get between $80M – $90M (hopefully in the NFC).
Regarding Mario Williams, who is a real game changer when healthy: The U.S. Navy spends a ton of the budget on Aircraft Carriers, because they are absolute game changers when in the combat theater. If the carrier only has two out of four catapults operational or sinks to the ocean floor half way to the assigned deployment, it’s effectiveness is no longer worth the investment for the fleet.
a lot depends on when it is paid and how much is guaranteed
Mario wants to play here. He wants to play for Wade. I don’t think he will take a hard line stance. He isn’t a slacker like Fat Albert. He plays hard, he plays hurt. He played for crappy coordinators and didnt mail it in. But your right, there is a limit to what I would pay, and sometimes you have to make hard decisions. I dont think our front office will over pay.
As MeMongo said,
interesting angle. And a good way to put what others have been saying without raising defenses….and that is, take off the homer glasses and look at this from strictly a business standpoint. When put this way, the answer is more obvious in my mind.
Just my $.02
Even duct tape can't fix stupid
Homer Glasses?

"Some ideas are so stupid that only intellectuals believe them." - George Orwell
I am Barry - I am from Texas
by Barryfromtexas on Jan 26, 2012 11:19 PM CST up reply actions 3 recs
There are logical points
both for keeping Mario and letting him go. Besides the fact that I would love to see a whole season of Mario in Wade’s D (I know there in no guarantee of that), I am a bit concerned of having Mario on the opposing team!
I seem to fail every time I look into these cap matters, and I do not claim to know anything about it (other than quoting someone else’s article – and that could be wrong). I do think that Rick SMith is a pretty darned smart fella and he will find a way to make all of this work.
"Some ideas are so stupid that only intellectuals believe them." - George Orwell
I am Barry - I am from Texas
forgetting the numbers for just a bit
Mario presents huge matchup problems. He is both big and fast. Are you going to put a big lineman on him? Out in space, Mario is likely to blow past him. And if you spread that lineman out too wide, it opens up a big gap for a blitz. Put a TE or FB on him and that bull rush he is so good at serves him well.
He also provides a lot of flexibility. We are a little thin at both DE and OLB. He can play either. Those are two less needs we need to fill in the draft. He could decide which to play depending on what look the offense gives, and what personnel they have.
Is this enough to justify a huge contract? Probably not, but he also could put up some huge numbers in Wade’s defense. Hard to say for sure, but I like the odds that he will. 12 and 14 sack seasons aren’t elite, but they arent anything to sneeze at. Wade has a history of improving defenses, particularly when it comes to sacks. I think Mario will have more than 20 sacks next year if he can stay injury free. But that is a big if…staying injury free.
I think Mario has a huge upside still. I would hate to see him realize that in another teams uniform. I really want to see us give him a chance to show it next year.
Wow! I just looked up contract info for our defensive front
JJ Watt is only making $11.23M over 4 years with a $6.67M signing bonus
That new rookie structure is protecting teams against busts, but holy crap that’s cheap for the kind of production JJ delivered in his rookie year, including the fact he smashed through the so called “rookie wall” as he only got stronger and faster in the post-season (not tired in week 12+ as the rookie wall theory goes).
The front seven of the Texans in financial review:
JJ Watt $11.23M over 4 years – UFA 2015
Antonio Smith $35.5M over 5 years – UFA 2014
Shaun Cody $5.75M over 2 years – UFA 2013
Brooks Reed $4.7M over 4 years – UFA 2015
Conner Barwin $4M over 4 years – UFA 2013
Brian Cushing $14M over 5 years – UFA 2014
DeMeco Ryans $48M over 6 years – UFA 2016
Mario Williams $54M over 6 years – UFA NOW!
by MeMongo on Jan 27, 2012 12:13 AM CST reply actions 3 recs
I think Mario will take what we offer him
I have yet to notice anything which says otherwise, he knows that he’s coming off an injury & the defense played lights out without him, I know he’s itching to get out there & play under Wade’s scheme a whole yr. He also will be playing for a championship contender, plus I never heard him complain about the scheme or blame any of the coaches since he became a Texan & even when asked to change positions he never made it a big deal, as far as I know the only knock on him is regarding him being injured, again I have yet to hear anything which makes me believe all he’s looking for is a fat paycheck, but hey I could be wrong, everyone changes when it comes to $$, but I would HATE no LOATHE for him to go to a rival like Jax or Ten. hopefully he realizes how special the defense & team could be after seeing our success this yr. and decides to re-sign.
I'd say Mario's near elite.
If he would ever stay healthy for a full-season, I think he would become elite.
As for signing him, I hope we do. If we can only spend on Myers and Foster, then I hope we at least franchise Mario, because even though he’s no DeMarcus Ware, he commands attention. He does make everyone around him better. Antonio Smith was dominant with Mario in the game, and then after the injury in week 5, Antonio did not record a single sack until the last game of the season.
"Hakeem couldn't kick your ass cuz you were too
close kissin his!"- Sir Charles to Kenny Smith.
Foster Child linked this earlier...
I’d recommend reading it. Sacks aren’t everything, and Mario has played with Antonio Smith (among others) for a couple years now.
Antonio just now started playing his real position this year, though.
When he was a 4-3 DE, he wasn’t that good. He’s much, much better as a 3-4 DE.
"Hakeem couldn't kick your ass cuz you were too
close kissin his!"- Sir Charles to Kenny Smith.
by bone31crusher on Jan 28, 2012 1:37 PM CST up reply actions
He was very good as a 4-3 DE.
In all honesty, he was more of an impact player than Mario during the Frank Bush years. That said, he still didn’t produce gaudy sack numbers. It’s just not his game; the beginning of this year was more of a product of small sample size than anything else. Were people really expecting double-digit sacks from him? How many 3-4 ends who bounce inside on passing downs produce like that?
Point is, he still made his presence known with hurries and by collapsing the pocket after Mario went down. Citing a drop-off by Antonio Smith as justification for re-signing Mario just doesn’t make much sense given everything that transpired last season. The defense and pass rush never saw a drop-off. You can attribute that to learning a new system, but they also did it against opponents that do a better job of protecting their QBs and they lost their starting QB and consequently stopped dominating TOP.
We’re a better defense with Mario Williams because he’s a better player than Barwin, and Barwin is a better player than Reed. But the idea that he’s constantly drawing double-teams and freeing people up is overplayed.
Is it?
Smith got his career high in sacks this year. He got 4.5 of those while Mario was playing. He got 2 the rest of the year. Reading LZ’s article, he’s right that Smith didn’t seem to benefit much from Mario’s presence when they were playing in the 4-3. But in the 4-3, they lined up on opposite sides of the line. In Wade’s 3-4 defense, they lined up on the same side. So you want me to believe that it’s just a coincidence that Smith went from 4.5 sacks in the first 4.25 games to 2 sacks in the last 11.75? Before Mario went down he and Smith were on pace to get 37+ sacks combined.
"...Andre, thank you for knowing when being a consummate professional needs to give way to just beating some mouthy punk's bitch ass. Because that was awesome. - MDC
"I like to get out to Vegas at least once a year for a heavyweight title bout. Because that's basically like the Oscars for hookers." - Sterling Archer
So you want me to believe that it’s just a coincidence that Smith went from 4.5 sacks in the first 4.25 games to 2 sacks in the last 11.75?
Yes, I do. Four games is not a valid sample size. But if you need another reason, consider that three of those first four games were against Indy, Miami, and a Pittsburgh team that could barely field five healthy offensive linemen.
Whereas without Mario, the teams they played ranked as follows in adjusted sack rate: 2nd (Tennessee twice), 4th (Cincinnati twice), 5th (3 quarters against Oakland), 7th (Atlanta), 12th (Baltimore twice), Tampa Bay (14th), and Cleveland (16th).
Before Mario went down he and Smith were on pace to get 37+ sacks combined.
Yea, that was probably going to happen.
Believe what you want
But after Mario went down Antonio didn’t have a single sack until the last game against Tennessee, when he got our only 2 sacks.
Yea, that's just a coincidence.
"...Andre, thank you for knowing when being a consummate professional needs to give way to just beating some mouthy punk's bitch ass. Because that was awesome. - MDC
"I like to get out to Vegas at least once a year for a heavyweight title bout. Because that's basically like the Oscars for hookers." - Sterling Archer
The sample size was too small for determining a trend on Antonio with Mario
Reed and Watt both recorded 3.5 sacks each in two post season games.
Sacks and interception stats usually tend to show up in clusters, so it’s hard to extrapolate.
I think since Mario draws a double team often, it can free up the other guys to break the protection more than without Mario, but there are other factors too.
Please, this is the internet.
Nuanced statements based on the quality of evidence do not produce the excitement we’re looking for.
If you MUST afflict us with your crushing reasonableness, at least throw in a GIF and a couple of LOLs.
"How can an idiot be a policeman? Answer me that!"
-Chief Inspector Dreyfus
WHAT IS MARIO?
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Arm chair GM. Mod/contributing writer at SBN Jets blog GGN.
GangGreenNation.com
by Bro Namath on Jan 29, 2012 2:32 PM CST reply actions 3 recs
I still can’t get the idea out of my head of Wade using Mario as some sort of super chess piece, moving him all over at both DE and OLB and rotating 5 guys through those 4 spots, keeping everyone fresh and we end up with some sort of Relentless Hydra Juggernaut Pass Rush™.
I see exactly where Rip is coming from and it makes sense, but Relentless Hydra Juggernaut Pass Rush!
Who knows maybe if the guys are playing less snaps they won;t get injured as much either (lets not froget Barwin hasn’t been injury free either).
Relentless Hydra Juggernaut Pass Rush!
FTW!
"How can an idiot be a policeman? Answer me that!"
-Chief Inspector Dreyfus
I like the concept of the RHJPR!
But seriously? Barwin gets his ankle dislocated in a freak accident as Antonio Smith rolls up on him awkwardly and we’re going to compare Barwin’s one time freak accident to Mario’s laundry list of injuries knocking him down from 100% 4 out of 6 years?
One is a random event that could happen to anyone, the other is a trend.
^^This.
Love Mario, want him back, but he’s a hothouse flower.
"How can an idiot be a policeman? Answer me that!"
-Chief Inspector Dreyfus
Leaving out this year though, even with those injuries, Mario still performed. It wasn’t like he wasn’t able to play well through it.
I honestly think this is as cheap as you will ever get a pass rusher of this caliber these days – by which I mean it will only be a shit-ton of money rather than a metric shit-ton, because thats the market for good passrushers.
Mario Williams will be playing in Reliant in 2012......but maybe wearing a Green Bay Packers uniform
Their defense needs an infusion to make it back to the post-season success they demand each year, and Mario could be the answer. Hey, at least it puts him in the NFC so we don’t see him too often each season.

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