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Around SBN: The Most Dangerous Division in Sports

Why Should I Consider The Other Side Of An Argument When I Know It's Wrong?

In an effort to see things from a different perspective, Mario Williams does his best David Anderson impersonation.

For the past twelve years (minus the two years where I went back to school), I've spent nearly every Wednesday night playing soccer after work. While the group of players has varied over the years, there's been a core group of about four or five of us who have been there from the beginning.

The modus operandi for the day generally goes as follows: Go to soccer field from work, play soccer, go to bar from soccer field, drink beer, go home, shower, sleep.

I'm not going to lie to you. The part about going to the bar is the main reason this thing has held together for so long. Some have referred to us as a drinking club with a soccer problem. We've become a very tight knit group of friends and as we've grown older, gotten married, and had kids (or in the case of one guy, had grandkids), it's been the one constant night where we can get out and just be guys.

Of course, if you take pretty much any group of men, stick them in a competitive environment for an hour and a half and then give them beer, the discussion will inevitably steer towards stupid arguments, outlandish statements, and the occasional dumb bet.

Throughout the course of any given Wednesday night, you are unlikely to hear comments start with the phrases "I think," "it's my opinion," or "your point is well made, but," and far more likely to hear them start with "I know," "the fact is," and "you're full of crap, here's the truth," spiced with the occasional expletive.

Yet, despite the apparent confidence, the comment that follows is often just well crafted BS (or perhaps not so well crafted). The "truth" is almost never as clear or precise as we would like it to be. The fact is, we all think we know more than we actually do, and we would be well served to carefully acknowledge opposing views and alternate theories.

That's unlikely to happen on Wednesdays, but the same applies to the discussion of the Texans' potential off-season moves -- I have more hope for you guys than I do for my soccer crew (perhaps because there's less beer here). So in an effort to facilitate some of the discussion, I'm noting some potential alternate theories on some commonly accepted "truths". Some I agree with and some I don't, but I want to pose them all the same.

Star-divide

Statement: The Texans must worry about Arian Foster first, Chris Myers second, and Mario Williams third.

Alternate View: Well, you could reorganize this prioritization any number of ways, but you could also make the argument that they don't have to be prioritized. The Texans may consider these to be independent activities that, while they obviously affect one another, are not necessarily intertwined. In other words, the prioritization in the Texans' eyes may not be Player A vs. Player B vs. Player C, but rather Option A (keep all 3), Options B/C/D (various combinations of keep 2/lose 1), and so on.

My Opinion: As a project manager, I know the importance of prioritizing objectives, so I'm sure the Texans have done so. Still, I believe the Texans are working this in tiers as I suggest in the alternate view. Their dream world is to find a way to keep all 3, so that would be the top priority, and I would guess that while they've discussed the other options from there. I would guess that by now, the Texans have their plan of attack set, but they probably have not wholly given up on retaining all three.

Statement: WR2 isn't much of a need because WR2 is the fifth option in this offense.

Alternate View: Here are Kevin Walter's receptions the past four years, starting with 2011 and working backwards, and where they rank on the Texans: 39 (3rd), 51 (t-3rd), 53 (2nd), 60 (3rd). Here are his targets over the same time: 59 (4th), 80 (3rd), 70 (2nd), 95 (3rd). Those don't look like the numbers of a fifth target.

My Opinion: I feel that the true answer is somewhere in between. Walter is clearly not the primary receiving threat, but to suggest that WR2 is not a big concern because he's a fifth option is probably too far in the other extreme. The numbers I threw out in the alternate view might be a bit misleading because of injuries to Owen Daniels, Andre Johnson, and the fact that Arian Foster wasn't an option in '08 and '09. Furthermore, it's impossible to say that anyone is the n-th option in the offense because it doesn't work that way. Walter will be the fifth option on certain plays and possibly the first on others. Lastly, you have to consider the chicken/egg idea. Is Walter not a higher option because of design or because the other options are just better? If a better option presented itself, would the WR2 suddenly play a larger role? Painting the WR2 with a broad 5th-option brush, though, is incorrect. At 30 years old, K-Dub is not yet over the hill, but an upgrade should still be a priority in the off-season.

Statement: Brooks Reed's performance this year proved that the Texans don't need Mario Williams.

Alternate View: Reed mostly picked up the scraps this year. Mario is still a dominant force, better against the run, and one of the best pass rushers in the league.

My Opinion: Here is my issue with the original statement: it is largely based on improvement of the defense as a whole, so Mario is being "punished" for being on the field during the 3-4 learning curve, while Reed is "rewarded" for playing mostly later in the season. Plus, Mario played during the more difficult stretch of the schedule. Look, I love the way Reed broke out and he definitely looks like he's going to develop into a fine player, but he's not yet in Mario Williams' class. According to Advanced NFL Stats, Mario had the second highest +EPA/G (the only "per game" stat) among the Texans linebackers at 3.02 (second only to Cushing's 3.28 mark). Reed came in at a very respectable 2.48. Again, I think Reed has a bright future ahead of him, and I'm very excited that that he'll be on the Texans, but to suggest that he's suddenly equivalent to Mario is a bit premature.

Statement: Mario Williams would be easier to replace than Arian Foster.

Alternate View: The Texans already have a potential replacement to Arian Foster in Ben Tate. Tate is a more capable replacement to Foster than Brooks Reed is to Williams. Besides, having three capable OLBs is more important than two capable RBs.

My Opinion: I think this is a lot closer than many people are thinking. I mentioned above already that Reed was very good, but not quite up to Mario's standard. The argument can almost be made that Tate is a closer replacement to Foster. Tate had a higher DVOA, a higher DYAR (on fewer carries, mind you), and a higher success rate. And, after I defended his fumbling during the season, Foster proceeded to fumble two more times, thus raising the issue from "statistical blip" to "legitimate concern". Were this the end of the discussion, I might actually agree with the notion that he's more replaceable, but when you look at the difference in DVOA and DYAR from a receiving perspective, Foster absolutely destroys Tate. The difference is such that it negates the close advantage Tate may have in the running game. Now, in the spirit of fairness, we don't have stats on how much better Mario plays the run than Reed -- it may be equally significant. In the absence of data, however, we will just have to go with a gut feel. I agree with the original statement that Mario is more replaceable than Foster, but I think it's very close and a strong argument could sway me the other way.

There is certainly more than what I've mentioned here, and I encourage you to add more in the comments, but it's always more enlightening to try to see things from the other side. The decisions made this off-season contain far more than two elements and many shades between black and white.

Now, I would appreciate none of you telling my wife (or my soccer team) about my willingness to consider other opinions.

Comment 192 comments  |  5 recs  | 

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You hit the nail on the head with Walter at WR2

Yes, he has been an important part of the offense and determining where he is on the pecking order doesn’t tell the whole story. You also state his age and recognition that he won’t be this player forever. It’s all a balancing act the team is playing…. which they play every year at this time.

As is with your first example and the balancing act of the FO trying to sign/prioritize signing Arian, Chris and Mario. What order? Sure, read that with whatever emphasis you want. What order? What order? What order? It is the puzzle that it is and that is the task of the FO, to put it all together.

I think we will see Tate get more carries next season, but in the end, I see the reason for that is probably the same reason that we saw that this past season. The goal is to get to the playoffs with a healthy Foster. Then unleash the beast.

"All our lives we're taught to get in line. The ones who conform never discover." - Undrafted Free Agent and NFL Rushing Leader Arian Foster

by Rip Jersey on Feb 21, 2012 8:18 AM CST reply actions  

WR2

Should we also consider jj’s numbers too as he was part of the WR2? and as most of us believe he’ll be gone, that means the reps will have to go to someone.

Also if the 2nd WR had more speed would he get open more/ effect coverage enough to get Dre more 1 on 1’s?

Sidenote

by SMITHILLIAK on Feb 21, 2012 9:58 AM CST via mobile up reply actions  

Sidenote

I can’t wait until the day when we have a number 2 that has to be double covered leVing Dre open like the ravens have with Torrey smith.

by SMITHILLIAK on Feb 21, 2012 9:59 AM CST via mobile up reply actions  

Not trying to be a dick, but this is the problem with the WR lust.

Is Torrey Smith a bigger weapon than Kevin Walter? Absolutely.

But you need to realize, we had a statistically better passing offense last year than the Ravens. That’s with two quarterbacks on IR, Dre missing half the year, etc.

What I’m saying is… Walter by himself is a pretty talentless NFL WR2, but that doesn’t hurt our offense. In our offense, like someone here one wrote, the system’s the star. I know people hate hearing this, but he fits the system.

Would a super athletic WR2 make the system better? I don’t know, but look at what happened when Denver, with Kubes as OC, spent a first round pick on super-freak-athlete Ashley Lelie.

by willieboyd on Feb 21, 2012 2:44 PM CST up reply actions  

I don't think there is any

question that the system would work better with better components. Just because you can sort of make it work with Walter and Jones, doesn’t mean that it wouldn’t work MUCH better with a legitimate WR2

by Bobbythegreat on Feb 21, 2012 2:51 PM CST up reply actions  

I agree, but how do you define a better component at WR2 for this offense?

Look at Ashley Lelie in this offense, 6’3", 4.2-4.3 forty. It doesn’t get more physically talented than that. Yet he had one good season.

Now look at the most successful guy, Ed McCaffrey. Pretty much a Walter-type of receiver. Not very fast, but big, brave and sure-handed.

I am not against upgrading WR2, I just don’t think you need first-round talent to do it.

We just find the next McCaffrey (a 3rd rounder, who had 7 seasons of less than 600 yards before he broke out for Denver) or Walter (a 7th rounder).

by willieboyd on Feb 21, 2012 3:09 PM CST up reply actions  

I agree it doesn't take a first round talent to upgrade WR2

it wouldn’t take much at all actually, that’s why I have always been for cutting Walter and Jones to make some cap room. I think you could easily upgrade WR2 for far less money.

by Bobbythegreat on Feb 21, 2012 3:17 PM CST up reply actions  

Spitballin' but...

Lelie was really only a downfield threat. He offered nothing in terms of route-running….which I have contested really makes the WCO WR.

"Lord, beer me strength."

by TexansDC on Feb 21, 2012 3:20 PM CST up reply actions  

For McCaffery's athletic short comings...

He could run a route and get separation.

/stops to fuel up the Nick Toon and Marvin McNutt bandwagon

"Lord, beer me strength."

by TexansDC on Feb 21, 2012 3:21 PM CST up reply actions  

I think we agree, too.

New WR2? Fine with me.

“Wasting a 1st round pick” on a guy that isn’t used as a downfield threat? No thanks.

by willieboyd on Feb 21, 2012 3:23 PM CST up reply actions  

I agree with what TDC is saying

I could add, regarding Kevin Walter and in his defense; he does exactly what is asked of him by the coaches. I commented earlier that when AJ went down, he didn’t step up and shine. But, I’m sure at the same time, he wasn’t being asked to shine. The offense became purposely more run-oriented out of the fact that, sure he is not AJ, but, it was Foster-time, too. Because right about the time the Texans were losing AJ, they were also losing Schaub to Yates. When AJ came back, AJ didn’t really become AJ, because of Yates.

If I were to summarize what Kevin Walter is to the team, I would say, he is a safety valve to provide an occasional alternative to AJ and Foster and the TEs, plus he provides great blocking in run situations, plus he knows the offensive scheme by heart, so it is a step back if you were to think of replacing him with another player, because there is something to be said about familiarity in this offense. Kevin Walter is almost like a TE who plays outside. Maybe that helps explain Kubiaks affinity to TEs.

"All our lives we're taught to get in line. The ones who conform never discover." - Undrafted Free Agent and NFL Rushing Leader Arian Foster

by Rip Jersey on Feb 21, 2012 3:47 PM CST up reply actions  

I don't knock Walter...

Heck, I think he’d actually do well in the slot, given his route running abilities. Would be nice to have 2 veterans with 3 younger guys (not named Jacoby Jones).

"Lord, beer me strength."

by TexansDC on Feb 21, 2012 4:04 PM CST up reply actions  

Lots of reason to keep Walter on the team and in the lineup

The Texans need him, really. I think all I’m saying that might be construed as a negative is that he is no AJ, but at the same time, no one expects him to be. He did not step up his game when AJ was out last season. He doesn’t have that kind of talent. A good slot guy? Sure. That isn’t super high praise, though, TDC. Plus, he is getting older and while we are looking for that future AJ, we also have to face the fact that we have to be looking for that future role-playing KW-clone. He’s been awesome, but he is no game-breaker; he doesn’t step up when the star, AJ, is out; and, he is getting long in tooth.

"All our lives we're taught to get in line. The ones who conform never discover." - Undrafted Free Agent and NFL Rushing Leader Arian Foster

by Rip Jersey on Feb 22, 2012 9:32 AM CST up reply actions  

About getting older...

McCaffrey had his best season at 32 (101 rec. 1317 yards and 9 TDs with Brian Greise and Gus Frerotte at QB).

He was then on pace for his best season, after one game, at 33 before a compound leg fracture ended his season.

The next year, at 34 and after a serious leg fracture, he still had 900+ yards.

This late career production again speaks to the talents needed at Kubiak’s WR2. Good route running, courage over the middle and reliable hands (and blocking of course) are more important than speed, quickness or leaping ability.

by willieboyd on Feb 22, 2012 11:30 AM CST up reply actions  

Should we expect 101 rec, 1300 yds and 9 TDs from Walter?

Is that the point you are making? Because, I’ll take the bet against that happening.

We’re talking about Kevin Walter here. I said he was no AJ. I will say the same thing regarding McCaffrey. He is no McCaffrey. Kubiak likened him to McCaffrey because, why? Kubiak say those things hoping that he attains that level. But, I just don’t see it. You can continue to hope that he does, and you can continue to compare the two, but he is no McCaffrey.

"All our lives we're taught to get in line. The ones who conform never discover." - Undrafted Free Agent and NFL Rushing Leader Arian Foster

by Rip Jersey on Feb 22, 2012 3:51 PM CST up reply actions  

Yup.

I love KW because he is a warrior, and I’ll always love him for that game winner in Cincinnati, but he doesn’t scare anybody at WR2.

"How can an idiot be a policeman? Answer me that!"
-Chief Inspector Dreyfus

by FreedomRide on Feb 22, 2012 4:01 PM CST up reply actions  

Your loyalties are in the right place!

"All our lives we're taught to get in line. The ones who conform never discover." - Undrafted Free Agent and NFL Rushing Leader Arian Foster

by Rip Jersey on Feb 22, 2012 4:45 PM CST up reply actions  

Yep.

101 recs, 1300 yards and 9 TDs from Walter next year. Write it down.

by willieboyd on Feb 22, 2012 4:26 PM CST up reply actions  

Haha!

I hope he does it, too

"All our lives we're taught to get in line. The ones who conform never discover." - Undrafted Free Agent and NFL Rushing Leader Arian Foster

by Rip Jersey on Feb 22, 2012 4:44 PM CST up reply actions  

I took the easy way out.

Actually, I was trying to argue that receivers (not just WR2s) in this system, based on history (i.e. Rod Smith and Easy Ed) have long careers. Yada, yada, yada.

Too much BRB for me.

by willieboyd on Feb 22, 2012 5:21 PM CST up reply actions  

this I agree with completely

b/c I think we already HAVE such a player on our team: Lestar Jean. The only reason to use a first round pick is if we are interested in finding a player who can replace Dre in the future. I def don’t want to use a 1st rounder on a receiver…I think we would be best served drafting for more Oline depth in the interior to be honest, but that’s just me.

Toon, if had in the 2nd round, would be a solid option.

by wiseonekms on Feb 21, 2012 11:26 PM CST up reply actions  

Title

I was in no way saying we needed Torrey smith…but if we had a little bit bigger and faster version of Walter to take that spot in 2 years that would be great.

This isn’t the year to get the heir to Dre I don’t
think unless we find a diamond somewhere.

by SMITHILLIAK on Feb 21, 2012 4:23 PM CST via mobile up reply actions  

Here's the thing: our WR2 situation that is holding the offense back:

Right now, the position doesn’t demand double-coverage, ever.

If it did, it would radically change the defenses called against the Texans. Safeties would have to be in 2-deep ALL THE TIME. Messrs Foster and Tate would feast on such defenses

I’m telling you, people: Andre, Adrian, Kendall Wright and OD? We would strike shrieking terror into the AFC South. We’d put 50 on the BESFs!

Kendall Wright! Trade up! Get him!

/drunk but rational, I swear!

"How can an idiot be a policeman? Answer me that!"
-Chief Inspector Dreyfus

by FreedomRide on Feb 21, 2012 10:13 PM CST up reply actions  

"Long story short: meh."

That’s how Mrs. BFD describes sex with BFD.

I have not yet begun to defile myself.

The Two-Day Hangover @ Battle Red Blog (2011) & SBN Houston (2010) | Twitter | About MDC

by MDC on Feb 22, 2012 8:24 AM CST up reply actions  

Adrian?

We traded for Peterson?

"Lord, beer me strength."

by TexansDC on Feb 22, 2012 9:08 AM CST up reply actions  

What, you didn't hear?

"How can an idiot be a policeman? Answer me that!"
-Chief Inspector Dreyfus

by FreedomRide on Feb 22, 2012 9:25 AM CST up reply actions  

Gene "Dipsy-Doodle" Peterson?

A sharp tongue is the only edged tool that grows keener with constant use.--Washington Irving

by Foster Child on Feb 22, 2012 6:03 PM CST up reply actions  

TJ Yates (and his, IMO, poor passing over the middle) was holding the offense back not, the WR2.

Look at these stats:

2007: 11th in NFL passing yards and 12th in passing TDs
2008: 4th in NFL passing yards and 13th in passing TDS
2009: 1st in NFL passing yards and 5th in passing TDs
2010: 4th in NFL passing yards and 17th in passing TDs
2011: 18th in NFL passing yards and 18th in passing TDs

Kevin Walter was the WR2 for all of those teams.

by willieboyd on Feb 22, 2012 11:44 AM CST up reply actions  

You need to factor in Foster and Tate

and less emphasis on passing in 2011.

A sharp tongue is the only edged tool that grows keener with constant use.--Washington Irving

by Foster Child on Feb 22, 2012 6:05 PM CST up reply actions  

True, but I think the point is still valid.

We have consistently been a top 5 passing team in the NFL with Kevin Walter as our WR2.

by willieboyd on Feb 22, 2012 6:21 PM CST up reply actions  

and the rest of the NFL

fell in love with passing in 2011, probably because we have all the stud RBs

TJ must throw 30 times for us to win.

by texanphil on Feb 23, 2012 4:06 PM CST up reply actions  

I am on the side that we must resign Foster first and foremost

But I do see the argument of people that say he is replaceable and a system back. Tate is a very good back, but he just does not bring that game changing presence that Foster does IMO. I also slightly worry about his health. He has missed time in both of his seasons in the NFL thus far. If we were to let Foster walk and go with Tate/Ward or Tate/rookie, how often will the latter of that combo be our starter? Given that the Denver scheme is known to produce 1,000 yard backs out of scrubs (and Tate is no scrub for sure) I really do understand why people say let Foster walk and go with the cheaper option, I just don’t agree with it. Our defense was more than capable without Mario. Would our offense be without Foster? Arguably so, but I am still scared to try and find that out.

"Never underestimate the dumb with JJ" - Hugh Jarce

by Mumford on Feb 21, 2012 8:43 AM CST reply actions  

Here's my problem

with the “anyone can get 1,000 yards in this offense” rhetoric:

Steve Slaton was a 1,000 yard rusher.

Would anyone say we had a top-tier rushing attack during that year? And more to the point, would anyone take Slaton over Foster?

Thousand-yard rushers are a dime-a-dozen. Arian Foster-type rushers are not. Pay the man.

Kubiak believes in you

by JayRedd on Feb 21, 2012 5:31 PM CST up reply actions   2 recs

Arian Foster wasn't why the Texans had a top tier rushing attack in 2011....

Ben Tate and the offensive line demand their credit.

"Lord, beer me strength."

by TexansDC on Feb 21, 2012 5:45 PM CST up reply actions  

Yes they do

but you’re taking an awful ot of credit away from Foster.

Most of this offensive line has been together for 3+ years. They weren’t as good 3 years ago as they are now, but… the rushing attack here was downright awful until Foster came along. And it’s not just about stats. Remember all those times when getting a tough yard or punching it in down in the red zone was such a headache?

As for Tate, I like him as a second option who could develop into a first option down the road, but I think he’s a lot closer to the dime-a-dozen pack than he is to the elite pack, at least right now.

Kubiak believes in you

by JayRedd on Feb 21, 2012 5:54 PM CST up reply actions  

You're partially right.

The running game was actually pretty good in 2008 with Slaton, though. 2009 was a result of injuries to both starting guards.

However, Foster is special. Kubiak’s ZBS offenses have typically never been able to run the ball against physical, 3-4 defenses. Foster’s vision and cut-back ability separates him from Slaton, Tate, Bell, Anderson, and maybe even Portis in his prime. His work against Pittsburgh in the regular season, Baltimore in the playoffs, the Jets last year, and so forth speaks to itself. Tate doesn’t go over 100 against a dominant defense, I can almost guarantee that.

by Nashmeister on Feb 21, 2012 7:32 PM CST up reply actions  

I thought Arian was pretty replacable until...

the Baltimore playoff game. He was essentially our only weapon and he set records. That big game mentality makes him fairly irreplaceable to me.

by willieboyd on Feb 22, 2012 11:48 AM CST up reply actions  

^^This.

Good running backs are fungible. Great players are not.

"How can an idiot be a policeman? Answer me that!"
-Chief Inspector Dreyfus

by FreedomRide on Feb 22, 2012 2:56 PM CST up reply actions   2 recs

They get credit, sure.

But when the shit was on the line—tied with the Steelers, needing a winning 1st down against the Falcons, both playoff games—who was the go-to hoss who got it done? Foster.

Yes, by God, Arian Foster WAS why the Texans had a top tier rushing attack in 2011. It probably would have been pretty good without him, but top tier? HELL, no.

"How can an idiot be a policeman? Answer me that!"
-Chief Inspector Dreyfus

by FreedomRide on Feb 21, 2012 9:45 PM CST up reply actions  

Amen for all of you who are making great points about Foster

He’s a runner that has all the tools. If needs to go over the top on goal line, he has a great vertical leap. If he needs to catch a bad checkdown pass, he’ll do it one-handed and still pick up the 1st down. If he need to cut back against the grain and explode through a hole, he’s not afraid to do it and run through you, around you, or juke you. Very special and he’s in his prime. Pay him.

"And on the 1st week of the 2nd month, year of our lord two-thousand thirteen, the football team from Houston, Texas USA will hoist the Lombardi trophy to a cheerful audience in New Orleans, LA USA."—Nostradamus, 99th Quatrain, Century X

by HTown24 on Feb 22, 2012 8:45 PM CST up reply actions   2 recs

There's a reason Tate didn't get a carry against Baltimore

Foster is on a whole different level (pass protection, catching ability, vision, and big play ability). Anyone able to name a time when Tate broke a long, make me get up and scream, TD? I mainly recall Tate fumbling on goal line instead…

by Burrellc19 on Feb 21, 2012 10:02 PM CST up reply actions  

YAAAYYY Burrellc19!!!

You are so full of troofs!

Bless you; you know some footballs.

"How can an idiot be a policeman? Answer me that!"
-Chief Inspector Dreyfus

by FreedomRide on Feb 21, 2012 10:29 PM CST up reply actions  

took the words RIGHT out of my mouth JR

I agree completely. I’ve gone back and forth on this so many times, but I think I’m sold that we need to lock Foster up big time. Sure, our oline wasn’t as good as it was when Slaton was running the ball back in ‘09, but I think that we have overlooked and taken Foster’s entire skill set for granted. He is made for our system, and we shouldn’t let him go just b/c of cap reasons. We are built to win the Superbowl. THAT needs to be our perspective going into next season, if that means signing Mario and Arian long term ensures us a team that can compete on a consistent basis, we MUST do it.

by wiseonekms on Feb 21, 2012 11:29 PM CST up reply actions  

I want my cake and to eat it as well.

i agree with all these arguments

If everybody was somebody, then nobody would be anybody - Gilbert and Sullivan

by professortex on Feb 21, 2012 9:13 AM CST reply actions   2 recs

A couple things:
Plus, Mario played during the more difficult stretch of the schedule.

This isn’t true. Mario picked up 11 of his 24 combined sacks, hits, and hurries against 39 year-old Kerry Collins playing his first game behind an injured and rookie-laden offensive line after about two weeks learning the Colts’ offense. Six more came against a banged-up Pittsburgh offensive line. Miami ranked 30th in adjusted sack rate allowed.

Oh, and as long as we’re on this subject, two of Tate’s three starts were against Indy and New Orleans; not exactly defensive powerhouses against the run.

Now, in the spirit of fairness, we don’t have stats on how much better Mario plays the run than Reed — it may be equally significant.

They play different positions; Reed looked shaky in spot duty when he had backside contain duty more often, but was actually quite good once he made the move to SOLB. And remember, it took Mario a few years to become a good run defender (hell, he wasn’t a productive pass-rusher out of the gate, either). Brooks Reed doesn’t have the kind of upside that Mario had, but comparing his rookie season to Mario’s 5th year in the league isn’t entirely fair. Also, PFF ranks Reed and Barwin quite favorably in coverage. Though I think a lot of that is a result of Wade Phillips cleverly masking our coverage.

by Nashmeister on Feb 21, 2012 9:25 AM CST reply actions  

Very valid points

Reed and Barwin are no slouches. Seems the common opinion is to say Mario is better so pay him, but the team is more important than the individual player. Sure would be nice to fit Mario in there, but if he doesn’t, the team is not going down the tubes by any means.

"All our lives we're taught to get in line. The ones who conform never discover." - Undrafted Free Agent and NFL Rushing Leader Arian Foster

by Rip Jersey on Feb 21, 2012 9:30 AM CST up reply actions  

making it too difficult

Mario is a stud, and makes this team better.

I don’t care what the stats say vs. how good the competition was he played against. He’s valuable to this team, but if he costs too much, he goes bye bye.

TJ must throw 30 times for us to win.

by texanphil on Feb 21, 2012 9:43 AM CST up reply actions  

TP, I haven't done it and don't know if you have, or if anyone has

But, I would like to see someone summarize the Texans projected payroll for 2012 based on current guaranteed money and projecting what they might sign all of their free agents and rookies, and then we can play math games, if you know what I mean.

"All our lives we're taught to get in line. The ones who conform never discover." - Undrafted Free Agent and NFL Rushing Leader Arian Foster

by Rip Jersey on Feb 21, 2012 9:48 AM CST up reply actions  

I didn't include any info on guaranteed money...

But here’s a spreadsheet with some year-by-year numbers. Totals are at the bottom. There’s no detailed information on most of our 2011 acquisitions, so they’re averaged for the remaining money on the contract. Joseph’s and Manning’s could vary greatly from year to year. Free agents and guys with unknown contracts are at the bottom; you can probably pencil late-round and undrafted rookies in for about half a million.

by Nashmeister on Feb 21, 2012 9:57 AM CST up reply actions  

I downloaded it

Initial observations:
- there are 50 players
- we should add some more slots to get it up to 53 or more
- we should add projected estimates for the players that do not have a cap figure

This is a good start and the games can begin.

"All our lives we're taught to get in line. The ones who conform never discover." - Undrafted Free Agent and NFL Rushing Leader Arian Foster

by Rip Jersey on Feb 21, 2012 10:40 AM CST up reply actions  

Only the top 51 salaries

count against the salary cap.

I have not yet begun to defile myself.

The Two-Day Hangover @ Battle Red Blog (2011) & SBN Houston (2010) | Twitter | About MDC

by MDC on Feb 21, 2012 10:50 AM CST up reply actions  

The bottom two would be so miniscule, it wouldn't cause us to cut Mario, don't think....

"All our lives we're taught to get in line. The ones who conform never discover." - Undrafted Free Agent and NFL Rushing Leader Arian Foster

by Rip Jersey on Feb 21, 2012 10:53 AM CST up reply actions  

Missed the point.

There’s no need for a spreadsheet listing “53 or more” roster spots if that spreadsheet is being used for salary-cap discussions.

I have not yet begun to defile myself.

The Two-Day Hangover @ Battle Red Blog (2011) & SBN Houston (2010) | Twitter | About MDC

by MDC on Feb 21, 2012 11:01 AM CST up reply actions  

really?

Is that the exemption, or is that just a random rule?

Because I read teams get 3 $1.5M exemptions from the cap this year, so that would be 48 salaries if that was over and above.

And we’ll need it with our $8M+ dead money.

TJ must throw 30 times for us to win.

by texanphil on Feb 21, 2012 10:47 PM CST up reply actions  

I haven't seen this $1.5x3 exemption.

I’ll investigate.

As for the 51, that’s the offseason (March 13 to week 1) rule.

I have not yet begun to defile myself.

The Two-Day Hangover @ Battle Red Blog (2011) & SBN Houston (2010) | Twitter | About MDC

by MDC on Feb 22, 2012 8:25 AM CST up reply actions  

Here's an old link.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/6775674/nfl-salary-cap-scramble-interesting

But I read it somewhere else also. So do two “read it on the internets” make it true, or do they cancel each other out?

TJ must throw 30 times for us to win.

by texanphil on Feb 22, 2012 9:32 AM CST up reply actions  

Where did that data come from?

I ask because it doesn’t match up with www.Spotrac.com, but then I don’t really know how accurate that website is either.

by La Voz on Feb 21, 2012 3:21 PM CST up reply actions  

Nevermind

I was looking at Base Salaries, not Cap Figures. My mistake.

by La Voz on Feb 21, 2012 3:47 PM CST up reply actions  

happens to me all the time

If everybody was somebody, then nobody would be anybody - Gilbert and Sullivan

by professortex on Feb 21, 2012 7:28 PM CST up reply actions  

Excellent points

Your point on the comparison of a 5th year pro vs a rookie is well made, but that’s also part of the point. Mario is a known commodity, and Reed is a big bag of potential. Potential can swing either way, so it’s premature to say that losing Mario and adding Reed is nearly a wash.

Your point on the different positions is also well made and should be included in the discussion as well.

by Vega on Feb 21, 2012 9:55 AM CST up reply actions   1 recs

Comparing Reed's rookie year to Mario's 5th is fair because that's the decision the Texans are going to have to make.

It’s not like there’s an option that allows us to take Reed’s later form. If we let Mario go, we’re stuck with #58 in his current state, for better or worse.

Houston Texans: 1 Playoff Win.
Vince Young, Dunta Robinson, and Jason Babin: 0 Combined Playoff Wins.

by T-Moar on Feb 21, 2012 8:10 PM CST up reply actions  

What happened to the other FeaturePost?

"All our lives we're taught to get in line. The ones who conform never discover." - Undrafted Free Agent and NFL Rushing Leader Arian Foster

by Rip Jersey on Feb 21, 2012 9:26 AM CST reply actions  

Technical issues

it will return later today

by Vega on Feb 21, 2012 9:55 AM CST up reply actions  

on the priorities

optimally, you’d like all three, but I think a GM negotiating with all those moving parts won’t last long. That might make it to the stage where you ask the agent what his client wants.

Then you have to prioritize in case it doesn’t work out like we want it to.

As far as Walter, I’m shocked that his targets are so high, given that he shares time in the WR2 position. Add the targets that JJ got while playing the WR2 position, and I think we definitely upgrade JJs side of the WR2. I’ve changed my mind on that priority just on that stat alone. Walter is still the starting WR2 in game 1, but I hope he has a stud coming in for a few targets a game behind him.

And then I hope that stud becomes a force as we reach our playoff games in Reliant.

TJ must throw 30 times for us to win.

by texanphil on Feb 21, 2012 9:41 AM CST reply actions  

more on the priorities

I think you have to prioritize your cap space, but I think with our big 3 FAs, each needs to be affordable to re-sign. I’d go a little over for Mario and Foster, but I wouldn’t way overpay for either.

Both are invaluable to the team, but neither is bigger than the team. If it creates a cap problem and hurts the team either this season or in 2013 for this problem, they are not worth it.

TJ must throw 30 times for us to win.

by texanphil on Feb 21, 2012 9:46 AM CST up reply actions  

I think there might be more beer

here… just saying. Thanks for the write up it was a great read

"Taco Joe - the beacon of optimism" TexansDC
THEREALALLENOU: "@Joeeatstacos... You're like the second testicle to my Tom green. I dont NEED you, but life is better when your around lol"
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God blessed Texas, but he has forsaken the Texans

by Taco Joe on Feb 21, 2012 9:44 AM CST reply actions  

Walter has essentially become the 4th/5th best option on the team.

Owen Daniels is above him
Arian Foster is above him
Andre Johnson is above him
Jacoby Jones is equal to him (before anybody jumps on me just compare the two over the last few years).

Walter’s role has shrunk since 2008 and with the emergence of Foster it’s grown even smaller. Either way he’s not worth the 21M contract he has now.

Prediction: 11-5 AFC South champions.

by Ethan Matz on Feb 21, 2012 10:08 AM CST reply actions  

Dreessen is a better red zone target than Walter

"All our lives we're taught to get in line. The ones who conform never discover." - Undrafted Free Agent and NFL Rushing Leader Arian Foster

by Rip Jersey on Feb 21, 2012 10:43 AM CST up reply actions  

I hate to agree with RIP lol

but yeah he is

@THEREALALLENOU on twitter - "The man, the verb, the legend" OU'd

by AllenOU on Feb 21, 2012 10:47 AM CST up reply actions  

Not sure about that.

Walter has 10 TD’s over the last 3 years Joel has 11 TD’s. Not a significant difference. Don’t know how many of those are redzone TD’s but either way they both score at about an equal rate.

I didn’t bother going further back because Walter’s total TD’s while a Texan blow away Joel’s.

Besides all that the Texans would rather run the ball in than throw passes in the redzone anyways.

Prediction: 11-5 AFC South champions.

by Ethan Matz on Feb 21, 2012 10:49 AM CST up reply actions  

but look at all of their catches

70%!!! of dressens are for TDs

maybe 10% of walters are

@THEREALALLENOU on twitter - "The man, the verb, the legend" OU'd

by AllenOU on Feb 21, 2012 10:51 AM CST up reply actions  

I think in our offense, the RB's and TE's are going to get a majority of the TD's

because we are a controlled rather than a big strike offense. The WR’s tend to get us in the red zone, but in the tighter space there, the TE’s are a bigger target and are better able to operate in the higher traffic. And usually the defense places a bigger emphasis on stopping the WR’s there.

by BleachBum on Feb 21, 2012 10:55 AM CST up reply actions  

Yeah Foster is a TD machine right now.

30 total TD’s the last two years is outstanding.

Prediction: 11-5 AFC South champions.

by Ethan Matz on Feb 21, 2012 10:59 AM CST up reply actions  

Plus we are talking now, not three years ago.

Walter has fallen out of the hierarchy. Dreessen is on the rise.

"All our lives we're taught to get in line. The ones who conform never discover." - Undrafted Free Agent and NFL Rushing Leader Arian Foster

by Rip Jersey on Feb 21, 2012 10:55 AM CST up reply actions  

Hmm I suppose.

But when I think of “redzone threat” 13 TD’s over 5 years doesn’t come to mind. That’s only 2.6 TD’s per season as a Texan. Hell throw out his first two years here and it’s still nothing special.

Prediction: 11-5 AFC South champions.

by Ethan Matz on Feb 21, 2012 10:57 AM CST up reply actions  

That's just proof that Walter is a has-been

"All our lives we're taught to get in line. The ones who conform never discover." - Undrafted Free Agent and NFL Rushing Leader Arian Foster

by Rip Jersey on Feb 21, 2012 10:57 AM CST up reply actions  

Further evidence that Walter is falling off

Last season when AJ was out for an extended period, you would expect the WR2 (Walter) stats to jump higher. Well, they didn’t.

"All our lives we're taught to get in line. The ones who conform never discover." - Undrafted Free Agent and NFL Rushing Leader Arian Foster

by Rip Jersey on Feb 21, 2012 11:00 AM CST up reply actions  

I disagree

Dre drawing constant double coverage opens looks for other guys including walter. With JJ stepping into that spot, the coverage shifted more evenly if not to Walter’s side which makes it more difficult for him to get open.

by CoogmanSam on Feb 21, 2012 1:43 PM CST up reply actions  

At the very least, he is just a shadow of AJ

So, yes I would agree that if Walter was a feature WR with AJ, which he is not, he should get open all the time with AJ, which he doesn’t. He is not AJ and I’m not expecting him to be. He is limited when it comes to expectations if he is put into a position of being the featured WR1. However, that being said, his receiving stats have fallen off over the past three years.

"All our lives we're taught to get in line. The ones who conform never discover." - Undrafted Free Agent and NFL Rushing Leader Arian Foster

by Rip Jersey on Feb 21, 2012 3:55 PM CST up reply actions  

he still blocks well, has good hands, and runs good routes.

But having said that, I would love to see us draft a good TE and go to 2 and 3 TE formations. I think it fits our ball control offense really well.

by BleachBum on Feb 21, 2012 11:01 AM CST up reply actions  

He may not return

If the Redskins don’t retain Fred Davis, there’s a rumor that Baby Shans would push for Joel to fill that spot as a starter. Opportunity + Money would be hard to turn down….would make finding a 3rd TE a draft question…unless they wanna use the Swiss Army Knife.

"Lord, beer me strength."

by TexansDC on Feb 21, 2012 11:05 AM CST up reply actions  

Is it just completely out of the question

to shop OD on the trade market? I love him but he’ll be the top paid TE in the league next yr. Seems like it wouldnt be too crazy to consider trading him, re-signing Joel and making TE a top priority in the draft, maybe even using a pick acquired in the trading of OD to do so. I think a group of Dreesen/(top ranked TE maybe Fleener if he falls far enough)/Casey/Graham could take the work load.

Rectum!? Damn near killed 'em!!!

by theSpaceCityKid on Feb 21, 2012 11:13 AM CST up reply actions  

Joel is nice but he's not as good as OD.

His salary is a little high but considering that fact that’s he’s one of the teams top targets and is a Pro bowl caliber TE I think it’s worth it.

Prediction: 11-5 AFC South champions.

by Ethan Matz on Feb 21, 2012 11:18 AM CST up reply actions  

I was wondering that too

but it seems like the general consensus is that no team will pay much (in terms of draft picks) for a TE—especially not a young one—when there are so many great athletic ones coming out in the draft every year now.

I’ve seen people ask LZ about it a lot and he usually sounds like you wouldn’t get more than a 3rd or 4th for it. It kind of makes sense if you look at the draft and see that there is rarely more than 1 in the 1st (if any) and they get scattered throughout the 2nd-4th

by Jason Brown on Feb 21, 2012 11:19 AM CST up reply actions  

Ya probably could only get a 3rd at best

and maybe you could use that to move up to grab your replacement but there are a lot of IFs involved. It just seems like that has to be a target in money saving. Maybe he will restructure.

Rectum!? Damn near killed 'em!!!

by theSpaceCityKid on Feb 21, 2012 11:26 AM CST up reply actions  

OD was my first target for restructuring

But his cap hit goes down quite a bit the next two years which is unusual. So there is a tradeoff there, if you can make it work this next year you get a better deal on him for the last 2 years (with a higher total cap as well)

by Jason Brown on Feb 21, 2012 11:27 AM CST up reply actions  

I've been thinking about this for a while.

It depends on what it would let us do. If trading OD lets us re-sign all of our other significant players, I think we do that in a heartbeat. I don’t even think we’d have to look for a replacement in the draft. Casey has shown capability near the bottom of a crowded depth chart, and Dreessen is still Dreessen.

Houston Texans: 1 Playoff Win.
Vince Young, Dunta Robinson, and Jason Babin: 0 Combined Playoff Wins.

by T-Moar on Feb 21, 2012 8:16 PM CST up reply actions  

The Swiss Army Knife can catch

"All our lives we're taught to get in line. The ones who conform never discover." - Undrafted Free Agent and NFL Rushing Leader Arian Foster

by Rip Jersey on Feb 21, 2012 11:35 AM CST up reply actions  

Graham exists too!

Watch me all in flames, on a butterfly I ride

by nolander on Feb 21, 2012 1:17 PM CST up reply actions  

Walter's target numbers are eye-opening

I never would’ve guessed that he’d be placing that high. Ever.

Then again, given the McCaffery comparisons, I should realize that more should be expected from #2: http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/McCaEd00.htm

"Lord, beer me strength."

by TexansDC on Feb 21, 2012 10:16 AM CST reply actions  

Well, he is a consistently health #2 receiver.

By virtue of snap-count alone, he’s going to be targeted often. But if you look at it on a per-route-run basis, he’s actually sixth in target % over the past two years. Here are the numbers:

Foster: 148 targets on 693 routes run (targeted 21.4% of his routes)
OD: 147 targets on 810 routes run (targeted 18.1% of his routes)
Jacoby: 134 targets on 825 routes run (targeted 16.2% of his routes)
Dreessen: 76 targets on 562 routes run (targeted 15.5% of his routes)
Walter: 136 targets on 941 routes run (targeted on 14.5% of his routes)

I didn’t include Andre because he’s clearly targeted more. But simply put, when Jacoby or Dreessen are on the field (which is less often because we don’t always run 3-WR sets or 2-TE sets with both TEs running routes), they’re targeted more often than Walter. Though Jacoby’s numbers are probably skewed due to filling in at WR#1 when Andre was hurt.

Of course, Vega is correct in that this could easily be due to Walter’s inability to separate more-so than Kubiak’s preference.

by Nashmeister on Feb 21, 2012 10:39 AM CST up reply actions   1 recs

That's a great way to look at it

Where did you get the route data?

I’d like to see how that has trended over the past few years. It seems to me that Walter’s impact has decreased over the past few years because of a) his own aging, and b) the influx of better options.

by Vega on Feb 21, 2012 10:48 AM CST up reply actions  

PFF.

And the past two years have definitely been Walter’s least productive. I’m guessing he was a legit #2 or #3 option in 2007 and 2008. Foster’s emergence has certainly taken away some of his targets, so I can’t tell if he has really lost a step or if his role is reduced due to Foster getting 35-40% of our touches on offense.

by Nashmeister on Feb 21, 2012 12:17 PM CST up reply actions  

problem is

2011 is an outlier, because TJ doesn’t trust all the receivers yet like Schaub does. And Schaub will know where the ball should go in more situations with more experience.

I actually hope they re-work Walter’s contract. But I don’t think he’s in danger of losing his starting job to anyone.

TJ must throw 30 times for us to win.

by texanphil on Feb 21, 2012 10:54 PM CST up reply actions  

This is what I'm saying.

It boggles my mind that people look at Kevin Walter as the problem instead of having a rookie QB!?!

by willieboyd on Feb 22, 2012 11:51 AM CST up reply actions  

hmmm
Tate is a more capable replacement to Foster than Brooks Reed is to Williams.


Not saying this isnt true, but its not exactly a sure thing either. foster makes the offense go. Tate is good, but foster is Elite.

I dont consider Mario Elite, mainly due to injuries.

Id rather have foster and reed than mario and tate

@THEREALALLENOU on twitter - "The man, the verb, the legend" OU'd

by AllenOU on Feb 21, 2012 10:29 AM CST reply actions  

wow I fucked that all up

@THEREALALLENOU on twitter - "The man, the verb, the legend" OU'd

by AllenOU on Feb 21, 2012 10:29 AM CST up reply actions  

Blockquoteception

"Some ideas are so stupid that only intellectuals believe them." - George Orwell

I am Barry - I am from Texas

by Barryfromtexas on Feb 21, 2012 12:17 PM CST up reply actions  

BQ fail aside

I agree. Foster is more vital to the offense than Mario is to the defense. 2011 showed us that.

Kubiak believes in you

by JayRedd on Feb 21, 2012 5:38 PM CST up reply actions  

^^This.

Defense is loaded with studs.

Offense? Not quite so much.

"How can an idiot be a policeman? Answer me that!"
-Chief Inspector Dreyfus

by FreedomRide on Feb 21, 2012 9:50 PM CST up reply actions  

Vega, if you were brought in as an "outside consultant" to evaluate the Texans players

who would you “fire”? My guess is that, as a fan, you’re too emotionally invested in the team to decide objectively. I think this is the problem with all of us: we have our favorites, and it’s hard to be objective when it comes down to who stays and who goes.

A sharp tongue is the only edged tool that grows keener with constant use.--Washington Irving

by Foster Child on Feb 21, 2012 10:43 AM CST reply actions  

yup gotta agree with this.

if you looked at it objectively then you would let all three walk. why? mario is injured “all the time,” too expensive, team effort. Arian should be replaceable under this system and considering he was an undrafted fa then anything above that should be able to produce the exact same way. myers is older than we need, and since we were able to take him from denver for a sixth round pick then we should be able to find his replacement easily in the same round.

of course things don’t work out that way. this is one offseason where i would like to be working with the texans just to see how everything goes down.

- Feeling the five stages of grief since 2002.

"It's either gonna make you a man or a coward. One of the two. I'm a be a man. I ain't never seen a coward, heard a coward, coward not in ma
vocabulary." - Lawrence Vickers

"I believe in this "zombie team that won’t fucking die no matter how many body parts you shoot off." We can win this game.

by NoSafetiesNeeded on Feb 21, 2012 10:47 AM CST up reply actions  

I can be objective

I sign myers
I sign brisel

I tender foster because I really dont think a team gives up a first AND a big contract we cant match, though its possible.

I try to accomplish all this, re structure other contracts, save money for our draft picks, and then make one offer to mario, the best we can, and hope he takes it.

thats what I would do

@THEREALALLENOU on twitter - "The man, the verb, the legend" OU'd

by AllenOU on Feb 21, 2012 10:49 AM CST up reply actions  

That's probably the best objective look

Assuming Myers doesn’t go for anything stupid. It wouldn’t surprise me if we lose some free agents this offseason and all of the sudden everyone is down on us, and the FO finds good replacements and we exceed expectations again. That’s kind of our MO

by Jason Brown on Feb 21, 2012 11:12 AM CST up reply actions  

bet they go after wallace

they can draft a RB with one of their many draft picks, and get him for 2-4 years for peanuts instead of paying foster crazy $$$

@THEREALALLENOU on twitter - "The man, the verb, the legend" OU'd

by AllenOU on Feb 21, 2012 11:22 AM CST up reply actions  

Yep. Cheapskate Mikey Brown will keep a lot of that cap money in his pocket.

"How can an idiot be a policeman? Answer me that!"
-Chief Inspector Dreyfus

by FreedomRide on Feb 21, 2012 11:36 AM CST up reply actions  

Funny this, and Tampa Bay is the same way

I understand you can build a good team fairly cheaply, but c’mon……60 mil under the cap. That just means he isn’t paying a lot of his talent what he should be. That has to be disheartening to the team. No suprise they fall flat each year.

If everybody was somebody, then nobody would be anybody - Gilbert and Sullivan

by professortex on Feb 21, 2012 7:39 PM CST up reply actions  

Just looking at the empty seats tells you all you need to know about the Bungals franchise.

They had a pretty good team this year and you could still have shot a deer in Paul Brown Stadium during home games.

Sad. They have some loyal fans they’re fucking over there.

"How can an idiot be a policeman? Answer me that!"
-Chief Inspector Dreyfus

by FreedomRide on Feb 21, 2012 10:22 PM CST up reply actions  

Starting in 2013

both teams will have to spend to hit the mandatory salary floor. So my guess is the cheapskate owners pocket that cash for one more year before they are required to shell it out.

I have not yet begun to defile myself.

The Two-Day Hangover @ Battle Red Blog (2011) & SBN Houston (2010) | Twitter | About MDC

by MDC on Feb 22, 2012 8:27 AM CST up reply actions  

I would be shocked

Here’s what people miss on the RFA decisions (and why it’s rare for someone to grab a high tender):

It’s not just about comparing “Arian Foster” versus “Some guy we draft in the 1st round”. As fans we focus on Foster’s ability versus an unknown player who may turn out to be a bust. GM’s usually see that 1st round pick as more of an asset.

In other words, it’s not just the player that they get to select that has value but also his contract rights (which is a tremendous value to some teams) at a cheap rate for several years, and he has no NFL mileage on him (again, another concern with teams).

by Jason Brown on Feb 21, 2012 11:25 AM CST up reply actions  

Also

Teams value their high draft picks a lot more than we do as fans. We see potential busts, but they generally treat them like gold. There could be some ego involved here, with front office’s thinking they are especially skilled at evaluating talent compared to the rest of the world (see McDaniels, Josh)

by Jason Brown on Feb 21, 2012 11:31 AM CST up reply actions  

exactly my point

you can have a guy like miller from the U for relative peanuts in the second round, and use the firsts on other spots.

or give foster a huge contract.

RBs just dont garner the interest any more because of the shelf life

@THEREALALLENOU on twitter - "The man, the verb, the legend" OU'd

by AllenOU on Feb 21, 2012 11:31 AM CST up reply actions  

Foster may have a longer shelf life than most

because he is so elusive and usually doesnt get hit that hard. But still, I dont break the bank for a running back, especially in our system.

by BleachBum on Feb 21, 2012 11:36 AM CST up reply actions  

Or he could be

merely a product of the system the Texans run. No one knows for sure if he would be a top RB in a different system.

by Bobbythegreat on Feb 21, 2012 2:00 PM CST up reply actions  

Highly doubtful

The skills that make him elite in our system would still be there on a different team. There is no way he is just a “product of the system” IMO. Our system might be the perfect fit for him, but he would be good no matter where he played.

"Never underestimate the dumb with JJ" - Hugh Jarce

by Mumford on Feb 21, 2012 3:54 PM CST up reply actions  

I don't think so.

A great system is more about adjusting the system to fit the players. Flexability is important, but if we switched to another RB, we’d have to make adjustments to the system, even Tate (though it’d be less of a shift and easier than if a new face showed up).

Occasionally, an outstanding player comes into the system and thrives from the system. Just because the system is good doesn’t mean it won’t suffer if that player leaves. There is some measure of chemistry involved.

If everybody was somebody, then nobody would be anybody - Gilbert and Sullivan

by professortex on Feb 21, 2012 7:45 PM CST up reply actions  

oh wait...sorry you were talking about his potential in another system.

Still, same would apply to another team, I think he takes what he got from our system and applys it in another scheme. Remember, one of his big qualities is that he is " a student of the game". If other teams know that, then they will expect he can adjust to whatever system they run.

If everybody was somebody, then nobody would be anybody - Gilbert and Sullivan

by professortex on Feb 21, 2012 7:49 PM CST up reply actions  

This is a scary thought

"All our lives we're taught to get in line. The ones who conform never discover." - Undrafted Free Agent and NFL Rushing Leader Arian Foster

by Rip Jersey on Feb 21, 2012 11:33 AM CST up reply actions  

I'm starting to wonder what team is a real threat to go after Foster if he costs them a #1 and big $.

Washington needs to make a QB move and will probably preserve its picks for that. Cincinnati is too cheap and they have two #1s they could use to get Trent Richardson for less.

Who else might do it? Tampa Bay if they can’t get Richardson?

"How can an idiot be a policeman? Answer me that!"
-Chief Inspector Dreyfus

by FreedomRide on Feb 21, 2012 11:54 AM CST up reply actions  

NO WAY anyone in the top 15-20.

that leaves playoff teams.

@THEREALALLENOU on twitter - "The man, the verb, the legend" OU'd

by AllenOU on Feb 21, 2012 12:00 PM CST up reply actions  

But playoff teams have their needs at other positions

I can’t see anyone majorly hurting for a back and willing to pay him a big deal.

"Lord, beer me strength."

by TexansDC on Feb 21, 2012 12:03 PM CST up reply actions  

exactly what Im getting at

that why I feel confident in tendering him, because picks are too valuable mostly due to the money part of them

@THEREALALLENOU on twitter - "The man, the verb, the legend" OU'd

by AllenOU on Feb 21, 2012 1:23 PM CST up reply actions  

I dont think Richardson falls to the Bengals

and we are talking about a team that made the playoffs last yr and a quality ground game could get them back there. I know they are cheap but they might not mind signing Arian to big $ with the salary floor coming into play next season.

Rectum!? Damn near killed 'em!!!

by theSpaceCityKid on Feb 21, 2012 12:02 PM CST up reply actions  

They have two #1s to trade up with, though.

"How can an idiot be a policeman? Answer me that!"
-Chief Inspector Dreyfus

by FreedomRide on Feb 21, 2012 12:19 PM CST up reply actions  

So theyll use two 1st rounders to grab an unproven rookie

instead of using one and more money on a proven stud? That sounds like a bad decision but I hope they make it.

Rectum!? Damn near killed 'em!!!

by theSpaceCityKid on Feb 21, 2012 12:27 PM CST up reply actions  

So use one pick on him and the other on a top OL

How does using both 1sts to trade up for Richardson improve the offensive line?

Rectum!? Damn near killed 'em!!!

by theSpaceCityKid on Feb 21, 2012 12:33 PM CST up reply actions  

It doesn't, but you have to remember how cheap they are.

If they believe, as many do, that Richardson is the next big star RB, and they know they can sign him for $2M/yr less than Arian, they might do it. Mikey saves money and sells tickets with a another new, exciting player.

"How can an idiot be a policeman? Answer me that!"
-Chief Inspector Dreyfus

by FreedomRide on Feb 21, 2012 1:21 PM CST up reply actions  

I feel this has turned into me saying the Bangals WILL do this

When my point is that they CAN and if it gets that far and they do… theres very little we can do to keep Foster once theyve thrown out a number we cant match. Solution: dont let it get there and sign him NOW

Rectum!? Damn near killed 'em!!!

by theSpaceCityKid on Feb 21, 2012 2:44 PM CST up reply actions  

and hope that Ben Tate

can write the same poetry Foster did on the field. I doubt he has the vocab if ya know what i mean.

Rectum!? Damn near killed 'em!!!

by theSpaceCityKid on Feb 21, 2012 6:17 PM CST up reply actions  

Don't want their goddamned 1st round picks.

Want Foster.

"How can an idiot be a policeman? Answer me that!"
-Chief Inspector Dreyfus

by FreedomRide on Feb 21, 2012 10:24 PM CST up reply actions  

Why use one on Foster?

They need safety help (Mark Barron), offensive line help (whichever OG/C/T is there), and cornerback help (Janoris Jenkins)….not to mention Trent Richardson is there and he’s a younger/cheaper RB to pair with their young corps of Dalton and Green (who will eventually cost them big bucks to retain).

Wouldn’t make sense to go after Foster given how their team’s being built.

"Lord, beer me strength."

by TexansDC on Feb 21, 2012 12:02 PM CST up reply actions  

They have so much money to spend in FA

You have no idea how they will choose to fill their needs. I wouldnt bet Richardson falls to them and no one else in the draft can even be comparable to the beast that Arian is and they know that. With a salary floor coming next season they may choose to go cheap and make as much money as they can this year, or they may choose to start spending that money now to get ready and to make another trip to the playoffs more likely

Rectum!? Damn near killed 'em!!!

by theSpaceCityKid on Feb 21, 2012 12:05 PM CST up reply actions  

Given Mike Brown's long and extensive history of being excessively cheap

I think it’s a good bet that they will go cheap.

"Lord, beer me strength."

by TexansDC on Feb 21, 2012 12:11 PM CST up reply actions  

I would like to point out that

I think starting this year, they HAVE to use 100 mil minimum of their cap space (all teams do). So, he will have to spend that money somewhere.

If everybody was somebody, then nobody would be anybody - Gilbert and Sullivan

by professortex on Feb 21, 2012 7:56 PM CST up reply actions  

Next year is when the minimum kicks in

AND there’s no rush to spend it all this year because you can roll over excess cap room into next year (like some teams did this season)…..so Cincy could have an EVEN larger cap next year to lock stars down and add in more pieces….while making more profit this year with a good, young team.

"Lord, beer me strength."

by TexansDC on Feb 21, 2012 8:51 PM CST up reply actions  

Oooofff, Then its a good thing all our premiums are UFA this year

and not next year.

If everybody was somebody, then nobody would be anybody - Gilbert and Sullivan

by professortex on Feb 22, 2012 10:45 AM CST up reply actions  

*FA's...foster RFA.

If everybody was somebody, then nobody would be anybody - Gilbert and Sullivan

by professortex on Feb 22, 2012 10:46 AM CST up reply actions  

We therefore maybe better not franchise Foster....

he would then be UFA next year.

If everybody was somebody, then nobody would be anybody - Gilbert and Sullivan

by professortex on Feb 22, 2012 10:47 AM CST up reply actions  

I thought it would cost 2 first round picks...

amirite?

Quoting the most likely scenario from MDC

Arian Foster, Option 2: Non-Exclusive Franchise Tag. While this option costs $5M more than the RFA tender, it could be attractive to the team simply because $7,700,000 is pretty fair value for Foster, and the non-exclusive tag gives them the added layer of two first-rounders for protection from another team signing Foster away.

"Some ideas are so stupid that only intellectuals believe them." - George Orwell

I am Barry - I am from Texas

by Barryfromtexas on Feb 21, 2012 12:23 PM CST up reply actions  

^ this

Foster may have been an UFA, but a man can over come where he started if he works hard.

"Sure, luck means a lot in football. Not having a good quarterback is bad luck."
-Don Shula

by zegion on Feb 21, 2012 12:57 PM CST up reply actions  

Arian should be replaceable under this system

Yeah the Texans have shown great success under Kubiak finding great/good RB’s that last more than a year…

Although I have no problem with the sentiment for the other to.

Prediction: 11-5 AFC South champions.

by Ethan Matz on Feb 21, 2012 10:52 AM CST up reply actions  

You dont break the bank for Arian

but he is clearly a better receiver than Tate, and less likely to fumble. You never know for sure how a draft pick will work out once he gets that big NFL payday

by BleachBum on Feb 21, 2012 10:57 AM CST up reply actions  

*two

Prediction: 11-5 AFC South champions.

by Ethan Matz on Feb 21, 2012 11:00 AM CST up reply actions  

Not me

Fire Jacoby

If everybody was somebody, then nobody would be anybody - Gilbert and Sullivan

by professortex on Feb 21, 2012 10:47 AM CST up reply actions  

Then make offers to the rest and let them walk or stay.

If everybody was somebody, then nobody would be anybody - Gilbert and Sullivan

by professortex on Feb 21, 2012 10:49 AM CST up reply actions  

Doesn't firing Jacoby

work both as a fan and outside consultant?

by Vega on Feb 21, 2012 10:48 AM CST up reply actions  

LOL...I think the fans would rather do something else to Jacoby

If everybody was somebody, then nobody would be anybody - Gilbert and Sullivan

by professortex on Feb 21, 2012 10:50 AM CST up reply actions  

It still involves fire.

I have not yet begun to defile myself.

The Two-Day Hangover @ Battle Red Blog (2011) & SBN Houston (2010) | Twitter | About MDC

by MDC on Feb 21, 2012 10:51 AM CST up reply actions  

don't give anyone ideas....

"All our lives we're taught to get in line. The ones who conform never discover." - Undrafted Free Agent and NFL Rushing Leader Arian Foster

by Rip Jersey on Feb 21, 2012 11:02 AM CST up reply actions  

Why is objectivity preferable from a front office position?

Logically, it makes sense that the franchise wants to make the most money, right? So, as the front office, why not do your damnedest to keep the players such as Foster and Mario that are considered “fan favorites,” and prioritize them above all else? After all, people are going to spend more money if the team has players that the fans like. If nothing else, they’ll follow the team more closely and buy more tickets and team merchandise. If anything, I’d say that the fan point of view is actually preferable to an objective one.

Houston Texans: 1 Playoff Win.
Vince Young, Dunta Robinson, and Jason Babin: 0 Combined Playoff Wins.

by T-Moar on Feb 21, 2012 8:27 PM CST up reply actions  

the thing is, it might not be the hometown fans who matter

Most of the money comes from tv revenue. I think Arian is a big draw outside Houston, and a lot of that is due to fantasy leagues. Mario? maybe not so much

by BleachBum on Feb 21, 2012 8:52 PM CST up reply actions  

But if the team doesn't have marketable players, would anyone watch them on TV?

Houston Texans: 1 Playoff Win.
Vince Young, Dunta Robinson, and Jason Babin: 0 Combined Playoff Wins.

by T-Moar on Feb 21, 2012 9:18 PM CST up reply actions  

Didn't the Astros experiment with this last year?

Dallas Cowboys, all hat and no cattle since 1996.

"Will it never be noon?" Duke of Orleans to the Dauphin and Constable of France every Sunday before the Texans play.

by Jonathan Fosburgh on Feb 21, 2012 9:44 PM CST up reply actions  

Who did the Astros have? I haven't followed them since they got rid of #17.

Houston Texans: 1 Playoff Win.
Vince Young, Dunta Robinson, and Jason Babin: 0 Combined Playoff Wins.

by T-Moar on Feb 21, 2012 10:41 PM CST up reply actions  

I don't there they finished the season with a single household name.

Dallas Cowboys, all hat and no cattle since 1996.

"Will it never be noon?" Duke of Orleans to the Dauphin and Constable of France every Sunday before the Texans play.

by Jonathan Fosburgh on Feb 21, 2012 10:47 PM CST up reply actions  

huh?

- Feeling the five stages of grief since 2002.

"It's either gonna make you a man or a coward. One of the two. I'm a be a man. I ain't never seen a coward, heard a coward, coward not in ma
vocabulary." - Lawrence Vickers

"I believe in this "zombie team that won’t fucking die no matter how many body parts you shoot off." We can win this game.

by NoSafetiesNeeded on Feb 21, 2012 11:32 PM CST up reply actions  

I don't *think* they finished the season with a single household name.

Dallas Cowboys, all hat and no cattle since 1996.

"Will it never be noon?" Duke of Orleans to the Dauphin and Constable of France every Sunday before the Texans play.

by Jonathan Fosburgh on Feb 21, 2012 11:45 PM CST up reply actions  

ALTUVE!!!!!!!!!!!!

I have not yet begun to defile myself.

The Two-Day Hangover @ Battle Red Blog (2011) & SBN Houston (2010) | Twitter | About MDC

by MDC on Feb 22, 2012 8:28 AM CST up reply actions  

Or a win.

What? IT WAS THE EASY JOKE!

"Lord, beer me strength."

by TexansDC on Feb 22, 2012 9:09 AM CST up reply actions  

The GM's responsible for the team and ensuring that they're good today and down the road

There’s a whole other staff (like the President, community relations, marketing, etc) that’s responsible for making money. The GM doesn’t have to worry about that…..so long as the team wins then he’s doing his part.

"Lord, beer me strength."

by TexansDC on Feb 21, 2012 8:53 PM CST up reply actions  

The question posed was as to what would be done if Vega was an outside consultant.

The GM role wasn’t specified there at all. It was strictly a player evaluation standpoint, and I assume that the “whole other staff” you reference does that too.

Houston Texans: 1 Playoff Win.
Vince Young, Dunta Robinson, and Jason Babin: 0 Combined Playoff Wins.

by T-Moar on Feb 21, 2012 9:20 PM CST up reply actions  

The GM role was implied, since he's mainly involved in personnel decisions.

The reason I asked the question is because most of us are biased towards one player or the other, and I’m wondering if any of us could make these decisions based on performance alone. I don’t think the calls to cut Jacoby or Kareem are entirely objective; would an outsider’s perspective on the players be different?

A sharp tongue is the only edged tool that grows keener with constant use.--Washington Irving

by Foster Child on Feb 21, 2012 10:30 PM CST up reply actions  

I think an objective, outsider

would have to take into account cap numbers and value to the team, exactly like Smith is going to do in the next few months.

Its really strictly a GM question.

TJ must throw 30 times for us to win.

by texanphil on Feb 21, 2012 11:06 PM CST up reply actions  

with no salary cap

you could make an argument that letting either go was a poor PR decision.

But in the NFL with a salary cap, this can’t be a PR decision. It has to be a good team decision.

TJ must throw 30 times for us to win.

by texanphil on Feb 21, 2012 11:04 PM CST up reply actions  

From a financial planning point of view

I would want to understand what the big hitters to my budget are going to be. Both Mario and Arian stand to have a much bigger salary than Myers, so Myers would be on my backburner in that regard. I would want to manage Mario’s and Arian’s salaries so I could sign Myers as well. So that would be my first priority. If that didnt work out, my fallback position would be to let someone go based on how capable his backup is, and how much money it would free up. I would also have to consider how many more years I would expect from each player. Centers and DE/LB’s tend to have much longer careers than RB’s, but Mario seems to have injury issues. I am glad I dont have to make the decision.

by BleachBum on Feb 21, 2012 10:50 AM CST reply actions  

Backup Perspective

I agree with your backup perspective. This is mostly why I view Myers as most important to the team.

While I don’t like the thought of rolling with Tate and/or Reed, it is a much better option than rolling with Caldwell, etc.

by CoogmanSam on Feb 21, 2012 1:53 PM CST up reply actions  

I was looking at out this way:

Trying to picture my feelings about the Texans going into next year if they lose one of the “big 3”. Out of the three FAs in question, the thought of going into the season without Myers scares the shit out of me. Going without Foster would be a huge concern too. I think I would be the least concerned going in without Mario, just due to my faith in Wade, the guys we already have, and the ability to draft more quality depth.

All this assumes a vacuum, of course, in which there are no free agent acquisitions.

by JBal on Feb 21, 2012 7:10 PM CST via Android app up reply actions  

my point is that ideally I would want to keep all three

I dont know the exact salaries, but say Myers contract might vary as much as a half to 1 million, while Mario’s (or Arian’s) salaries could have as much as 5-6 million swing in them. The important thing is then to reduce the uncertainty in the big money swing contracts, with the thought that your going to keep Myers in any circumstance, but you still need to settle the other (bigger) contracts first to see how much room (if any) you have under the cap.

by BleachBum on Feb 21, 2012 8:11 PM CST up reply actions  

I'll say it.

Myers is overrated this year. Probably because of his well-known PFF stats.

He’s essentially the same guy that everyone called “ragdoll” and wanted replaced.

His true value is somewhere between ragdoll and pro-bowl. Also, he only has value to teams that solely run a ZBS.

by willieboyd on Feb 22, 2012 11:56 AM CST up reply actions   1 recs

I like the way you think

and the keeping options open.

I am still undecided on the who all should we keep thing – but in reality, the part about dealing with each case individually has some aspects to truth.

What I do know is the Texans had better NOT lose Mario AND Foster – I think there may be riots if that happened.

"Some ideas are so stupid that only intellectuals believe them." - George Orwell

I am Barry - I am from Texas

by Barryfromtexas on Feb 21, 2012 12:27 PM CST reply actions   1 recs

I would riot just for Foster

We’ve seen what the D is like without Mario. Could it be better with him? Sure. But is it worse without him? No.

Madame de Staël once said, "One must choose in life between boredom and suffering." De Staël is dead but there is always an alternative.
This is where the cool is.

by Antho10000 on Feb 21, 2012 1:04 PM CST up reply actions  

And I think the D probably takes a small step backward next year

at least in the statistical categories, mainly due to QBs we will face

@THEREALALLENOU on twitter - "The man, the verb, the legend" OU'd

by AllenOU on Feb 21, 2012 1:25 PM CST up reply actions  

Could we get a post explaining the Advanced Metrics that are used on this site so often?

I feel like I get lost way too often when they’re brought up.

Houston Texans: 1 Playoff Win.
Vince Young, Dunta Robinson, and Jason Babin: 0 Combined Playoff Wins.

by T-Moar on Feb 21, 2012 8:31 PM CST reply actions  

Keep Mario, rotate him all over the place like the freakish chess piece Wade will make him and unleash Relentless Hydra Juggernaut Pass Rush (RHJPR!)

Any chance one of you fine folk who know about football talk about this scheme wise and such? I promise I will wipe off the spooge I put on the screen quickly so as to cause as little discomfort as possible.

by chunky04 on Feb 22, 2012 6:36 AM CST reply actions  

If Mario leaves because the Texams don’t have enough cap to make a competitive offer similiar to the Tamba Hali, Haloti Ngnata, or the Charles Johnson deals from last year, Rick Smith should be FIRED! He shouldn’t have let it get to this point.
Someone needs to go to create some cap for Mario. A. Smith or D. Ryans. Their replacements can be found in round 1 or 2.

by Goud on Feb 22, 2012 7:39 PM CST reply actions  

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