The Importance Of The Deep Threat
Last week, TexansDC posted about the need for a West Coast receiver. While draft disagreements are nothing new between us (the Robert Quinn Papers would have reached the size of the Federalist ones if we had let them), I think the answer for the Texans is a little more complicated than that.
Andre Johnson's importance to this team was spelled out last season by just how lost T.J. Yates looked without him down the stretch. After teams got some film on Yates when the Texans clinched the division in Cincinnati, he had a couple of stinkers in a row without Johnson. Against the Titans, he had a great first drive with Johnson, and then Andre made a big difference in the playoffs for him. In fact, he was just about the only receiver Baltimore couldn't cover.
In a vacuum, do teams that run a more West Coast-style passing game need outstanding deep threats? Not really. But, to channel Mr. Kubiak, does it also make them a heckuva lot harder to defend? This much, I think, is conclusively true.
For the first draft in Texans' history, this team has no real need to force a pick, especially since I'm not totally convinced that Rick Smith couldn't find two free agent receivers with a chance to be better than Kevin Walter and Jacoby Jones will be going forward. They are certainly weaker at some spots than they are at others, of course.
However, drafting someone like Alshon Jeffery or Michael Floyd -- and I'd even throw Kendall Wright in this crowd -- gives the Texans a chance to use a low-value first-round pick on a very important enterprise: having a potential replacement for Andre Johnson.
Andre Johnson has been, without a doubt, the best player to ever put on the deep steel blue and liberty white. I tread lightly because judging on personal experience, there isn't much that I doubt he can do if he sets his mind on it. But even idols watch their skill sets fade and their health fall into question. Anyone remember a certain division rival struggling with that this past season?
The main argument I have against TDC's piece was that it was concerned a bit too much with the present. Should the Texans fix their holes? Yes. At the same time, Johnson has missed 3/4 of a season over the past two years. He'll be 31 when next season begins. I didn't perceive much drop off when he was on the field, but he's such a fulcrum point for this offense that I think it's important to have someone who can step in and deliver what he can on the football field. Age happens to everyone, even the most awesome. A pick of an elite-tools receiver may have some thinking that the Texans are trying to build a Madden offense -- I say that it's a pick aimed towards 2013 and 2014 first.
Would using a first-round pick on a physical freak with questions be a risky move? Unquestionably. But that is how teams as good as Houston get high-caliber players late in the first. If Jeffery or Floyd had no red flags, then the Texans would never be in a position to obtain them. For all the hoopla about how Dez Bryant is completely inept off the field, you sure don't hear Jerry Jones and company complaining about how that pick worked out, do you? How about Hakeem Nicks? Roddy White? Of course, for every one of those guys, there is a Buster Davis or a Rashaun Woods. I'm not denying the inherent risk here -- I'm simply pointing out that just because a pick doesn't have a 70 percent chance of being a solid starter doesn't make it a bad pick.
And sure, the Texans have traditionally stayed away from "bad character" guys. I don't think that's generally a bad philosophy, though I do think there are times it can be a bit overblown. I also don't think that, in Floyd's case, the fact that he likes to drink alcohol makes him a stupid person. The fact that he was a college football player that didn't know how to hide the drinking worries me more than that, if that makes sense. Either way, I understand that these guys wouldn't traditionally fit in Rick Smith's box, but Rick Smith also hasn't ever drafted this low very often, and the last time he did, following the character pattern, he wound up with Kareem Jackson. Womp womp.
Look, I'm not fully "on board" with anybody at this point of the process. I just think it's silly to throw out potentially good value at a position of need because they don't fit in a neat box for next season. I understand that the Texans don't necessarily need a deep threat or someone who can run the whole route tree, but I think they'd be doing themselves a disservice to not investigate the possibility. This pick could go in any number of directions: wide receiver, replacing Shaun Cody (I won't call this a "nose" because TWO-DOWN PLAYER!!!!), pass rusher, maybe even cornerback, offensive line, or quarterback.
Drafting in the bottom part of the first round tends to make your picks more risky -- I'll take a calculated risk on a possible elite receiver over drafting a "safe" receiver that can only play underneath any day. Particularly in a class that runs deep in receiving options like this one. You can find "safe" receivers in the fourth round these days. It's the Andre Johnsons that make your passing engine hum.
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Yes, getting that WR that can break a big gainer would be awesome
Andre Johnson has been that player who can do that. When he isn’t in the lineup, the team has to make the rush game work, which it does very well at. But, weapons are always desirable in a fight. Another “high-caliber” WR in the arsenal could be very helpful. Call it what you may, I would like to see a WR that is a red zone threat; someone that knows how to score TDs. I’m totally with Rivers wanting a that player in the 1st round.
"All our lives we're taught to get in line. The ones who conform never discover." - Undrafted Free Agent and NFL Rushing Leader Arian Foster
Its a risk for sure
but if someone you like is sitting there you take him
the giants have three great rec. we have one who is getting older.
we need to find a #2 in this draft, and a #1 soon. I dont see us getting a #1 in this draft, unless floyd falls or jeffrey somehow tears it up
@THEREALALLENOU on twitter - "The man, the verb, the legend" OU'd
I would kill to have a WR corp like the Giants have
"All our lives we're taught to get in line. The ones who conform never discover." - Undrafted Free Agent and NFL Rushing Leader Arian Foster
same here
have to find that 3-5 round guy that can come in and contribute. we need what we THOUGHT jacoby was going to be, dont you think
@THEREALALLENOU on twitter - "The man, the verb, the legend" OU'd
Yep. Jacoby has not lived up to expectations.
Let’s face it….Kubiak and Smith gave Jacoby a contract due to “Jabar Gaffney Syndrome” of developing a player for a couple of years and then seeing him produce well for another team.
Jacoby’s issues reside between his ears. He simply does not have good decision making ability, and he’s an undisciplined route runner who rounds off sloppy patterns and drops balls (failed concentration). Classic issues that should have been corrected at the college level, but in the first two years of the NFL at the latest. Going into a sixth season and still demonstrating these issues is unacceptable.
by MeMongo on Feb 7, 2012 11:45 AM CST up reply actions 5 recs
bobbythegreat..... read above ^^^^^
rec’d
@THEREALALLENOU on twitter - "The man, the verb, the legend" OU'd
Do you still think
that I was trying to defend Jacoby Jones? I was advocating cutting him.
by Bobbythegreat on Feb 7, 2012 1:14 PM CST up reply actions
He's still just a track guy playing football
"...you may all got hell, and I will go to Texas!"
-Davey Crockett
I'm starting to like the idea of getting Jeffery
If he falls to us. I know a lot don’t like the idea cause of his work ethic issue but if we can somehow get him I think our staff can whip him into shape (if the rumors are true). I think he would be a perfect #2 and we should grab him if he can manage to run a good 40. Somewhere in the 4.5s is good with me cause he already has Andre size and is a good blocker which we need for our outside recievers. Dude has so much potential that he can eventually replace Andre
by Zukywich08 on Feb 7, 2012 12:33 PM CST via iPhone app up reply actions
I don't know . . .
a) I don’t know what rumors there might be about Jeffery
b) I think that once you enter the NFL you should be a professional
b1) professional means that we’re not hiring you so that we can mother you
b2) Kubes spent how many years just getting Jacoby up to maturity level NFL PRO 101?
team time and resources could be better spent on some unexpected hero at WR rather than parenting some immature college kid.
Surely there HAS to be some JJ Watt of Wide Receivers out there that Rick Smith can dig out of the pile.
I’m actually not offering an opinion on Jeffery but I have STRONG reservations about grown adults having to mother someone else’s kid. It’s just not good for business and not good for a professional atmosphere.
I think Kubes is done with maturity projects. Or I would be done with maturity projects if I were him. I present to you, Jacoby Jones — maturity project numero uno. Six years later, how far have we gotten.
I hope Rick Smith sticks to his guns and finds us a JJ Watt of Wide Receivers.
#Texans2011 — Where reality and dreams collide!
~~ Fuzion
"This is a grown dog’s game. Ain’t no puppies out here." ~~ Cushing #56 to Antonio Smith #94
by BattleRedFan on Feb 7, 2012 11:37 PM CST up reply actions
Surely there HAS to be some JJ Watt of Wide Receivers out there that Rick Smith can dig out of the pile.
You mean, an elite athlete with great college production and an impeccable work ethic? Those guys tend to get snatched up early. He was a steal at #11. When you get into the later picks, you either have to settle for somebody with lower upside or higher bust potential.
And Jacoby’s issue isn’t necessarily maturity. It’s just skill at this point. He rounds off his routes and drops balls. We drafted a DII athlete and he never honed his skills as a receiver. Jeffery, on the other hand, is fairly polished and has proven his ability against the very best. I’m not saying there’s no risk, but it’s a different situation entirely.
ahhh ok. thanks for explaning =)
You mean, an elite athlete with great college production and an impeccable work ethic?
yeah! exactly!
Those guys tend to get snatched up early. He was a steal at #11. When you get into the later picks, you either have to settle for somebody with lower upside or higher bust potential.
/cry
ok
what’s a DII athlete?
and what are the issues with Jeffery? I’m too lazy to look this crud up so I’m depending on y’all ;-).
#Texans2011 — Where reality and dreams collide!
~~ Fuzion
"This is a grown dog’s game. Ain’t no puppies out here." ~~ Cushing #56 to Antonio Smith #94
DII athlete is somebody
That plays at a smaller lesser known school where the athletes arent as big, strong, or fast as someone that plays at somewhere like Alabama. Jeffery’s issue has been his work ethic “supposedly”. I think it’s all speculation and rumors and if he checks out at the combine we should draft him. Only way I wouldn’t is if he showed that he was working and gained like 10 extra pounds or something
by Zukywich08 on Feb 8, 2012 2:02 AM CST via iPhone app up reply actions
ahhh ok
Didn’t Arian Foster have that same alleged “work ethic” issue in his senior year? or wasn’t he injured?
In any case if it’s just an “alleged” work ethic issue then I suppose the man can have an interview ;-).
Of course, it might be important to remember that Arian Foster whipped himself into shape — undrafted free agent started on the practice squad. He might have had a few nudges from Kubiak here and there. But I don’t think that Arian was dragged kicking and screaming to practice — he just realized on his own that a guy could get called up from the practice squad. And I don’t think Arian ever missed a plane to an opponent’s field. . . just saying . . .
Thank you for the information, Zuckywich08!
#Texans2011 — Where reality and dreams collide!
~~ Fuzion
"This is a grown dog’s game. Ain’t no puppies out here." ~~ Cushing #56 to Antonio Smith #94
arian foster
his senior season they changed OCs who was a disaster, and their QB had a bad year. It actually is good for the Texans negotiating position, since he has had such success in our system, there may be some truth to the theory that he does so well because of this system.
I don’t know about work ethic concerns, but Arian supposedly showed up overweight to the Senior Bowl, but underweight to the combine, IIRC.
TJ must throw 30 times for us to win.
I'm fine with looking for a successor to Andre Johnson
Just don’t force it…and don’t put unrealistic expectations on whoever gets that title. Andre Johnsons don’t come along that often. Sure there are plenty of good WR’s who put up great numbers, but not many great WR’s who do it consistently year after year.
It’s possible to catch lightning in a bottle twice (Montana—→Young) but you just can’t expect to replace an all time great with an all time great.
The other part of the equation when looking at the draft and FA for WR is run blocking. For a WR that’s more of a having the want to and the right mentality, but in this offense it’s vital. The #2 WR in this offense spends a lot of time doing dirty work.
"If my hips had pockets, I wouldn't wear pants at all." @NotBurtReynolds
by papabear on Feb 7, 2012 10:22 AM CST reply actions 3 recs
kendal wright is def not replacing dre as a one
there are very vew steve smiths
I HOPE HOPE HOPE floyd falls in our laps
@THEREALALLENOU on twitter - "The man, the verb, the legend" OU'd
Hell even Blackmon/Aj Green/Julio Jones type of WRs
Can only hope to be an Andre Johnson
Rectum!? Damn near killed 'em!!!
by theSpaceCityKid on Feb 7, 2012 11:19 AM CST up reply actions
Good point on run blocking
I trust that Kubiak and crew will be looking for well-rounded WR candidates. I’m not all that familiar with the draftees and their qualifications. We see highlights on youtube which generally don’t include their blocking skills. I’m sure in this day and age, you can get scouting film on players to see all their skills.
I’m sure that there is plenty of film out there on any FA’s qualifications.
"All our lives we're taught to get in line. The ones who conform never discover." - Undrafted Free Agent and NFL Rushing Leader Arian Foster
Agreed on blocking and the impossibility of replacing Dre
But that’s all the more reason that I’m for using a late 1st or 2nd round pick on what could be a crapshoot. If we pick a WR in the first two rounds there shouldn’t be as crazy of expectations or pressure between being a low pick, we already have a great offense, and sitting behind Andre.
I think Kareem took a lot of flack because he was on a terribad defense with no “good” player in front of him. Yes, he sucked, but he should have been allowed to fly under the radar for a bit like Tate and Barwin.
BPA
By that I mean take the guy with the highest intersection of character, talent and positional value.
Haha! Nice broad answer! Except, guys like JJ Watt don't grow on trees and there are many who were unhappy with that pick immediately afterward last draft....
"All our lives we're taught to get in line. The ones who conform never discover." - Undrafted Free Agent and NFL Rushing Leader Arian Foster
I was pointing out that BPA doesn't mean simply most athletically freakish, to me.
Positional value is what is being debated here, and I posted a concrete example below.
Another example...
If Floyd drops you weigh him against Fletcher Cox.
Floyd is a 6 in character, a 9 in talent and a 7 in positional value. (making those first two up)
Cox is a 8 in character a 7 in talent and an 8 in positional value. (making the first two up again)
It’s basically a push and the deciding factor has to be how the staff feels about his chances of changing his character.
I’m not saying draft a DE/NT over a WR. Positional value is 1/3 of the equation to me.
That's if you weight all 3 of those the same
Sometimes I wonder if (to use your “thirds” example) us being a “character” team just means that we apply half-weight (1/6 in this case) to character while a team that doesn’t really care may apply 1/10 or nothing at all.
That's a good point. My example was pretty simplistic.
I think talent probably plays more than 1/3 for most teams.
Positional value for Texans...
dictates front seven over wide receiver in my mind.
With an average front seven our defense is still probably average.
With average wide receivers, and Matt Schaub, our offense is still top 10. Even without Schaub or AJ, our offense was good enough to clinch against the Bengals.
Basically, WR is a luxury pick and I don’t think our D-line is deep enough for luxury picks yet.
by willieboyd on Feb 7, 2012 10:47 AM CST reply actions 1 recs
1) If Andre Johnson wasn't in his 30s and starting to break down
2) If Kevin Walter was someone who could break an occasional big one.
3) If Jacoby Jones wasn’t so freakin’ error-prone.
4) If WR4, whoever that is, had future star tattooed on him.
Then I would agree that WR was a luxury pick. However, none of the above is true. That makes WR, in my mind, a definite need pick. I’m not saying it has to be the 1st round. Maybe taking a WR in the 1st round equates to a luxury pick, because there are no guarantees at the 26th pick. But, you could say that about any position at that pick.
"All our lives we're taught to get in line. The ones who conform never discover." - Undrafted Free Agent and NFL Rushing Leader Arian Foster
by Rip Jersey on Feb 7, 2012 10:57 AM CST up reply actions 2 recs
Kubiak will have a top half offense with anyone.
2007 (aka worst case scenario 1): AJ played 9 games, under 1000 yards, Ron Dayne, etc. = 12th in points scored, 14th in yards
2011 (aka worst case scenario 2): Schaub, AJ and Foster play 1 quarter together plus all of the liabilities you mentioned at WR = 10th in points, 13th in yards
seriously?
If andre misses 8 games again, we are so fucked.
you dont have to have rec that can make plays neccesarily, just someone else the opposing D has to respect.
Its a huge need
@THEREALALLENOU on twitter - "The man, the verb, the legend" OU'd
With Schaub we're fucked if Andre misses 8 games?
There is nothing to prove that. We made the playoffs this year by beating two playoff teams with Yates, JJ and Walter.
The only way we’re fucked is if our defense returns to pre-2011 form. Kubiak has always fielded a top offense, Wade hasn’t always fielded a top defense. Wade relies on talent more than Kubiak does.
if dre goes down AND we got rid of JJ AND KW
@THEREALALLENOU on twitter - "The man, the verb, the legend" OU'd
You have got to be kidding me!
Wade relies on talent more than Kubiak does
Wade has a reputation for taking the players he’s given, and building a defense around them. That is far from relying on talent. You don’t just turn crappy Defenses around in a year by relying on talent. Wade has done this 5 times.
If everybody was somebody, then nobody would be anybody - Gilbert and Sullivan
He's always had a hall of fame type player on his good Ds, hasn't he?
Wade Phillips Top 10 Defenses:
1982-1984 New Orleans (Rickey Jackson)
1989, 1991 Denver (Mecklenburg, but Wade had some horrible Ds in Denver)
1996-2000 Buffalo (Bruce Smith)
2007-2009 Dallas (DeMarcus Ware)
2011 Houston (?)
Wade really doesn’t have that great of a stats as a DC. He does turn teams around, but unless you have late 90’s Bills talent, you can’t expect the good times to last.
Kubiak on the other hand has had a top 5 offense the majority of his career. Including the third ranked offense in the league in 2002 with Brian Greise at QB.
might be more accurate
to say he “creates” talent?
Maybe his coaching causes players to be better than they would be, say, under a Frank Bush scheme.
TJ must throw 30 times for us to win.
He didn't create Bruce Smith and that was the only place he consistently had a top 10 defense.
NO was good for three years, but one was a strike shortened season.
Wade really doesn’t have a great statistical record as a DC.
Kubiak has a sterling statistical offensive record as a OC and a HC.
Oh yeah...
He was consistently good in Dallas, too. I don’t think he “created” Ware either.
This is amazing
You throw some rediculous, offhanded, unsupported statement out there that has no logical foundation. Then claim that any evidence presented showing opposing viewpoints is faulty and inaccurate, or outright false. And because opposing arguments are faulty, your argument must then be true.
So you are saying that all of these teams would still have improved if Wade had not become their DC just because they somehow managed to land a mega star player that made the difference in the year that Wade showed up.
That somehow, Wade has just been lucky all these years, to be at the right place at the right time to make it “look” like he is a good coach, but it was really the players that carried him.
So you are saying that, “We should expect our defense to get worse next year because we have Wade, and if it doesn’t get worse, its only because [HOF type player] carried our defense”
If everybody was somebody, then nobody would be anybody - Gilbert and Sullivan
by professortex on Feb 7, 2012 9:45 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Not really what I was saying.
I was saying that Wade has only been consistently successful when he had talent. Wade has finished bottom half of the league (including dead last) plenty of times. Therefore, I assume he needs top-shelf talent to be a top 10 defense.
Kubiak has been successful with every offense he has coached regardless of talent. We were top half of the league this year with Yates and the “last three game debacle”. That’s amazing. This leads me to assume the Kubiak system can rely on niche talent (which is basically no talent, if we are the only ones looking for it) to be a top 10 offense.
Statistically, their offensive/defensive records aren’t similar. That’s just a fact.
Also, I don’t expect our defense to get worse, but considering some of Wade’s other teams and our tougher schedule next year, it worries me.
by willieboyd on Feb 8, 2012 7:41 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I understand what you are saying
that kubiak’s success is a product of the system, while Wade’s success is a product of the talent. I just disagree with it.
Where I disagree is the idea that Kubes offenses are successful without talent. They may be high ranking in terms of numbers, but the end result is still a losing season. Kubes didn’t even have a winning record until this year, and then it was only by one game. Elite players make special plays that get the job done. I don’t think Kubiak has had an offense that didn’t have talent on it, certainly not the current one.
I am also having a hard time with the Idea that Wade’s system didn’t have anything to do with our defenses improvement or that Wade relied on talent to turn our defense around. I can’t think of a single defense anywhere, anytime, that had less talent than our current defense, yet did better. I’m pretty sure there have been other teams that have had more talent, but didn’t do as well.
As far as Wades’s consistency, its is too hard to measure since he really hasn’t been a DC anywhere for more than 3?, 4? years. I would also point out, that everywhere that Wade has been the DC, I think he was under an Offense oriented HC. Those places that have consistently good defenses, have good DCs under defense oriented HCs (in most cases if not all).
All in all, Wade’s situation is unique. The argument can be made either way, that Wade creates talent, or finds it. In any case, this is an effective way of running a defense.
Finally, there are any number of arguments that can account for the inconsistency of Wade’s previous defenses, that don’t have anything to do with his system. I would argue that the most likely reason for the collapse of a Wade defense has more to do with player motivation than scheme. And this is I fear a Wade Phillips shortcoming.
I guess what I am saying is that you can’t say that Wades success relies on Talent just because it has always been available to him when he was successful. The talent was still there when Wade’s defenses dropped in ranking.
Nor, conversly, can we say that Kubiak is successful without talent, since he has always had some talent on his successful offenses.
If everybody was somebody, then nobody would be anybody - Gilbert and Sullivan
by professortex on Feb 8, 2012 1:46 PM CST up reply actions 3 recs
I agree that Kubiak can put together a productive offense and he could probably do it by grabbing someone off the street or with the guys he has.
But, you describe a WR draft pick as a “luxury” pick and you say instead of a WR, the Texans should grab someone who can play backup in the front 7. How is that not more of a “luxury” pick than a WR who would likely be a starter next season and learning to be productive in Kubiak’s system, which as we already agree is a good system?
"All our lives we're taught to get in line. The ones who conform never discover." - Undrafted Free Agent and NFL Rushing Leader Arian Foster
Backup DE and backup NT plays 20 plays a game.
DE and NT were the spots that had no injuries this year.
They already have depth at those position
"All our lives we're taught to get in line. The ones who conform never discover." - Undrafted Free Agent and NFL Rushing Leader Arian Foster
We obviously disagree on that.
I think Jamison as a starter really hurts our defense.
Dude Jamison is a beast and excellent depth.
Rectum!? Damn near killed 'em!!!
by theSpaceCityKid on Feb 7, 2012 11:58 AM CST up reply actions
3 career sacks in 32 career games does not = beast
"...you may all got hell, and I will go to Texas!"
-Davey Crockett
hahah ok hes a "creature"
but seriously Jamison plays well for us when he is in. I watched him make a lot of plays. When players get injured it obviously hurts. You cant go out and use 1st round picks on depth so you can have 2 starting lineups.
Rectum!? Damn near killed 'em!!!
by theSpaceCityKid on Feb 7, 2012 12:04 PM CST up reply actions
The Giants have a pretty deep d-line, but they've drafted d-lineman in the first and second in 2010 and in the second in 2011.
All positions are not valued equally.
Having extra top-level talent at premier positions is better than having top level talent at every position IMO.
That's why I hope we resign Mario and pick an inside pass rusher in the middle rounds
Most people don’t realize that Osi Umenyiora and Aldon Smith aren’t even starters for their teams. They come off the bench only to rush the passer. Most coaches consider nickel CB’s and pass rushers as starters anyways. We would have 3 legit edge rushers, and I’d like to see one more “inside” rusher. I’m not sold on Earl Mitchell. 2 guys I think have potential in the draft that I like are Derek Wolf from Cincy and Brett Roy from Nevada.
Derek Wolfe
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJsmdwFcPyg
Brett Roy was on SI’s all-american first team as a DT, but he’s more of a 5 tech
http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=7228749
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5zNFmXVNq4
Both would be good fits for Wade’s style of D. Both can rush from the inside as well, not just off the edge.
"...you may all got hell, and I will go to Texas!"
-Davey Crockett
I agree with the positional assessment.
As far as those specific guys, I have no eye for scouting. I’ll take your word for it and watch for them, though.
I like Wolfe & I think he'd be a great fit for the Texans' D-Line
I like his versatility to play either the NT or 5 Tech, plus he’s got a high motor on him. I think he could be a mid round gem
Murphy’s 20th Military Law:
If it’s stupid, but it works, it ain’t stupid
"Fuck em all. Go Texans."
by The Night Owl on Feb 8, 2012 2:17 PM CST up reply actions
I think the fact that they run a 4-3 makes a difference
Rectum!? Damn near killed 'em!!!
by theSpaceCityKid on Feb 7, 2012 1:52 PM CST up reply actions
Good point
This is more comparable to us drafting Reed in the 2nd despite having Mario and Barwin, plus maybe grabbing another this year
Of course it does, but the point is...
they had two starting caliber ends and then drafted JPP.
Proving you can draft backups in the first round at premier spots and get value for them.
For pass rushers, especially.
It’s such a high-effort position. You don’t want to tire your starters out, nor do you want to bring in mediocre pass-rushers for relief lest opposing teams dial up slow-developing, deep passing plays.
I’d be completely on board with a first-round DE or OLB.
Yes, the effort and stamina of the D players this past season was definitely lacking and an upgrade is needed
Screw WR
"All our lives we're taught to get in line. The ones who conform never discover." - Undrafted Free Agent and NFL Rushing Leader Arian Foster
yes, lets judge a player on sack numbers alone
thats so smart!!!! NOT
@THEREALALLENOU on twitter - "The man, the verb, the legend" OU'd
He's good depth
I don’t think he’s anymore than a rotational guy. He plays hard and has some skills, but you have to at least look at his stats to get a sense of his production. What else are you going to look at, his “swag” rating???
"...you may all got hell, and I will go to Texas!"
-Davey Crockett
Especially sacks per game
When he doesn’t even play full games. If you want to go that route (which is a joke for 34 DE) at least go sacks/play.
I have been really impressed with Jamison, but my opinion means nothing so I trust Wade – and Jamison is just about the only depth guy I have ever seen him gush over. He likes the guy a lot and isn’t afraid of putting him in during important situations, which means a lot to me
Jamison isn't a beast
But he is an above average Dlineman.
by Zukywich08 on Feb 7, 2012 12:44 PM CST via iPhone app up reply actions
Explanation...
In this offense, 90% our WR2’s catches, especially true with Schaub, come from him being in the right position and simply making the catch. He rarely has to run past his man, he rarely has to jump over his man he simply has to run to his spot, catch the ball and hold on through the hit. He moves the chains for us. Like DC wrote in his piece, it’s a horizontal game not a vertical game.
On top of this and almost as importantly, he has to contribute in the run game. He has to block on the edge and chip block lineman at times when he motions. Walter is great at this.
Yes, he’s overpaid to do these simple things. I think Kubiak, from what he’s said, thinks Walter earns that extra money by setting the “professional locker room tone” that the team seems to value so highly.
Statement.
Well written master! Meatbags do not usually display such hi levels of logic.
/Hk 47’d
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CUT JACOBY JONES CUT JACOBY JONES CUT JACOBY JONES
CUT JACOBY JONES CUT JACOBY JONES CUT JACOBY JONES
by Carter Liles on Feb 7, 2012 12:09 PM CST up reply actions 6 recs
So rec'd...
The bird is struggling out of the egg. The egg is the world. Whoever wants to be born, must first destroy a world.
by Stupendous Man on Feb 7, 2012 1:25 PM CST up reply actions
its an amazing one for sure!
when i saw “explanation” it just registered.
CUT JACOBY JONES CUT JACOBY JONES CUT JACOBY JONES
CUT JACOBY JONES CUT JACOBY JONES CUT JACOBY JONES
CUT JACOBY JONES CUT JACOBY JONES CUT JACOBY JONES
CUT JACOBY JONES CUT JACOBY JONES CUT JACOBY JONES
CUT JACOBY JONES CUT JACOBY JONES CUT JACOBY JONES
"our defense is still probably average"
The Texans defense I watched last year was what most would call “elite” what with spending most of the year ranked as the #1 or #2 defense in the league
schedule helped
look at the QBS we face this year…. wow
@THEREALALLENOU on twitter - "The man, the verb, the legend" OU'd
by AllenOU on Feb 7, 2012 11:05 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I don't think that's fair to say that we played terrbile QB's and everyone else played elite QB's
Pittsburgh and Baltimore played the AFC South and NFC west, not exactly QB central, and played 2 games against Colt McCoy and Andy Dalton. Pittsburgh also played the Tyler Palko led Chiefs. Baltimore played an extra game against the Jets (25th in the league in total offense. SF also drew a shit ton of shitty offenses. 2 games against the Seahawks, 2 against the Rams, 2 against the Cards, and Cleveland,Tampa, and Washington. They also Drew Andy Dalton’s 3rd career start.
Our defense may have played some bad QB’s, but so did the other top defenses. Our defense is a top 5 defense in both talent and stats. We just don’t get the publicity of some of the other teams…
"...you may all got hell, and I will go to Texas!"
-Davey Crockett
by Drill Sarge on Feb 7, 2012 11:44 AM CST up reply actions 5 recs
Right.
In the playoffs, the Texans’ D removed all doubts about its elite status. It will be even better this season.
"How can an idiot be a policeman? Answer me that!"
-Chief Inspector Dreyfus
It will be even better this season.
This is where I have my doubts. Wade has always been best his first year.
I'm basing this on Watt & Reed getting better,
maybe GQ and a couple of others improving, too.
"How can an idiot be a policeman? Answer me that!"
-Chief Inspector Dreyfus
Our defense only had Mario go down.
We really were pretty lucky with defensive injuries.
by willieboyd on Feb 7, 2012 12:07 PM CST up reply actions 3 recs
Are you forgetting Manning?
Plus CB2 was a traffic cone.
The Houston Texans: The Ron Paul of the NFL.
4 games for Manning. Not a game-changer.
Sharpton wasn’t really too big either.
One or two injuries on the d line and we are hurting.
We did lose some games by Manning
and Sharpton was a key contributor before he got hurt, but all in all we did stay pretty healthy. That’s where it’s good to have quality depth. If good players are constantly rotating in, rather than your starters playing 90% of the snaps your chances of getting serious injuries lowers.
"...you may all got hell, and I will go to Texas!"
-Davey Crockett
by Drill Sarge on Feb 7, 2012 12:12 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
That is not true
San Diego, DC = 2004-2006: defense ranked 31st in 2003, in Wades 1st year, 2004 ranked 11th, 2005 ranked 13th, in 2006 ranked 7th
Buffalo Bills, DC=1995 – 1997: Wades first year (1995) Defense ranked 13. In 1996 they ranked 9th, and in 1997 they ranked 9th.
Denver Broncos, DC 1989 – 1992: In 1989 they ranked 3rd, up from 22d. in 1990 they dropped to 5th… hardly a big difference. 1991 they remain at 5th. In 1992 they drop to 22d.
New Orleans Saints, DC 1981 – 1985: Ranked 11th in 1981, ranked 5th in 1982, ranked 2d in 1983, ranked 4th in 1984, and dropped to 24th in 1985.
Only in 2 cases (The Atlanta Falcons and the Philidelphia Eagles) did Wade’s defense not improve after the 1st year. In four different cases, they either improved after the first year or at least remained consistent. In 2 cases, they improved dramatically.
This Texans defense is ranked 2nd during his first year. If he holds to his record, the Texans will either be no.2 again, or no. 1.
If everybody was somebody, then nobody would be anybody - Gilbert and Sullivan
I'll give you NO, Buffalo, SD and Dallas.
That’s four teams that didn’t do worse the second year, but…
Philly 17th to 23rd
Denver 3rd to 20th (your info is wrong, Denver had a bad D in 1990)
Atlanta 19th to 32nd
are what have me worried (especially the last two).
On the plus side the one team with great talent, the Bills, stayed consistently good.
You'll give me .......? This isn't negotiations
That’s 4 teams that he did better after the 1st year, which is 1 more than the 3 that he didn’t do better. When you say he “usually” does better his first year, that means doing better after the first year is the exception.
You have a legitimate argument if you say, “In some cases, he has a catostrophic second year as a DC” which might cause us to consider the possibility that our next year could be a defensive collapse. But that isn’t what you said.
I am inclined you think that the probability that our defense will have a massive collapse is highly unlikely.
I do not think that Wade’s success is solely a consequense of the presence of HoF type players (although Mario could be one) on his defense. I think his success is attributable to his ability to exploit the talent that he has available to him in exotic ways. He brings out the talent that players have. He has thus created some Hof type players (Andre Ware), and he has had the benefit utilizing some that were already that good (Bruce Smith, though i’ve seen some compelling arguments that Wade brought out the best in Smith)
I think it is reduculous to argue that Wade Phillips is not one of the best DCs in the business.
If everybody was somebody, then nobody would be anybody - Gilbert and Sullivan
by professortex on Feb 7, 2012 10:24 PM CST up reply actions 4 recs
Calm down, "I'll give that" was an expression to mean you're right about that. lol
So, you were right about NO, Buffalo, SD and Dallas. Better?
When I said Wade has always best his first year, I was also wrong.
His inconsistency as a DC still worries me, though. I do think we have enough talent to remain great, but if we have a catastrophic amount of injuries at one of Wade’s premier positions, like the O had this year, I don’t think he could guide us home like Kubes did with the offense. This is why I think front 7 depth is more pressing than a wide receiver.
-——————————
I’ll post his defensive rankings and let you judge from just those.
Yardage rank and points rank.
1981 NO 11-24
1982 NO 5-8
1983 NO 2-12
1984 NO 4-19
1985 NO 24-22
-———————————-
1986 Phi. 17-12
1987 Phi. 23-25
1988 Phi. 27-14
-———————————-
1989 Den. 3-1
1990 Den. 20-23
1991 Den. 5-3
1992 Den. 22-19
1993 Den. 19-10
1994 Den. 28-25
-———————————-
1995 Buf. 13-12
1996 Buf. 9-6
1997 Buf. 9-23
1998 Buf. 6-15
1999 Buf. 1-2
2000 Buf. 3-18
-———————————-
2002 Atl. 19-8
2003 Atl. 32-30
-———————————
2004 SD 18-11
2005 SD 13-13
2006 SD 10-7
-———————————
2007 Dal. 9-13 (Is this where he coached Andre Ware? /joking)
2008 Dal. 8-20
2009 Dal. 9-2
2010 Dal. 23-31
-———————————
2011 Hou 2-4
Breakdown:
Yardage
Top 10: 15 years
11-20: 8 years
21+: 7 years
Scoring
Top 10: 10 years
11-20: 12 years
21+: 8 years
I agree, last year he was the best in the business. I hope he continues that here (and his Buffalo/Dallas records suggest he can), but I am also worried.
For comparison, Kubiak's offense:
Yardage
Top 10: 12 years (11 years top 5)
11-20: 3 years
21+: 2 years
Scoring
Top 10: 13 years (4 years top 5)
11-20: 3 years
21+: 1 year
Ok...I see where our disagreement lies
It is how we define success.
I define it as winning a game. And Wade Phillips has a higher winning percentage than Kubiak.
In your statement above, you said:
I don’t think he could guide us home like Kubes did with the offense.
I don’t think Kubiak’s offense brought us home after injurys. Wade’s defense did. Even with elite HoF type player Arian Foster, we barely scored enough points to keep us in the game. If not for Wade’s defense, all of the games since Schaub went down are loses. For crying out loud, we only scored 16 points against Indianapolis.
If everybody was somebody, then nobody would be anybody - Gilbert and Sullivan
ahhh but against Indy we had the Colts + the zebras against us
that’s a much tougher team to defeat.
#Texans2011 — Where reality and dreams collide!
~~ Fuzion
"This is a grown dog’s game. Ain’t no puppies out here." ~~ Cushing #56 to Antonio Smith #94
I thought we had the zebras against us in all our games
except Atlanta and Miami.
If everybody was somebody, then nobody would be anybody - Gilbert and Sullivan
Atlanta?
Have you forgotten the breaking-the-laws-of-physics forward fumble?
"How can an idiot be a policeman? Answer me that!"
-Chief Inspector Dreyfus
lol..ya...i did forget that one
maybe they were against us in all the games. Just some more than others.
If everybody was somebody, then nobody would be anybody - Gilbert and Sullivan
The ole' anti-tuck rule.
If everybody was somebody, then nobody would be anybody - Gilbert and Sullivan
we also faced dalton and flacco
not exactly brees and rodgers bro
@THEREALALLENOU on twitter - "The man, the verb, the legend" OU'd
LOL
epic
but we did it
without Mario and with KJax
he’s that big a liability eh? hehehe
#Texans2011 — Where reality and dreams collide!
~~ Fuzion
"This is a grown dog’s game. Ain’t no puppies out here." ~~ Cushing #56 to Antonio Smith #94
by BattleRedFan on Feb 8, 2012 12:01 AM CST up reply actions
so did Pittsburgh and SF
I think the shitty QB to good QB ratio the defenses faced was almost equal for us, SF, Pitt, and Baltimore. 3/4’s of the QB’s they faced were average to below average.
"...you may all got hell, and I will go to Texas!"
-Davey Crockett
We face Rodgers and Brady in 2012
And Stafford and Cutler make me sweat. But the rest of the QB crop is pretty beatable. It’s better than the 2011 crop, but it’s not a significant jump.
We still get Gabbert twice (salivating), Hasselbeck twice (nothing special), Luck twice (will have nothing to work with), Sanchize, Moore, Fitzpatrick, Ponder, Flacco, and Tebow. None of these guys should raise the wrath of God with this D (not even the Lord and savior Tebus himself)
Kubiak believes in you
Im only comparing last years sch with next years
I could care less about other teams bro
we play rodgers, cutler, rivers, big ben, brady, stafford… IT DOES MATTER
@THEREALALLENOU on twitter - "The man, the verb, the legend" OU'd
are defense might not be statistically what it was in 2011
but our defense will be stout, and our offense should be much better, all else being equal.
TJ must throw 30 times for us to win.
also worth noting
Cutler won’t have a offensive coordinator who seems intent on killing him for the first time in years
I was talking about pre-2011 (before we had front seven talent across the board).
Watt and Barwin (the two biggest upgrades) were basically new to the team.
I am perfectly ok with drafting a WR at #26
I just think the talk of cutting Jones AND Walter is silly. We need to keep Walter while the rookie gets up to speed. I wouldn’t want to start the season with our WR core looking like this : Andre, rookie, rookie, Jean, Maehl. That would be scary.
The Houston Texans: The Ron Paul of the NFL.
by DaGoaT on Feb 7, 2012 11:14 AM CST reply actions 1 recs
Agree
It would not benefit the Texans to just cut and replace across the board like that. Constituency weighs a lot in Kubiaks system. That is why guys like David Anderson are able to find a home here still in times of need.
"All our lives we're taught to get in line. The ones who conform never discover." - Undrafted Free Agent and NFL Rushing Leader Arian Foster
I meant "continency," if that is a word....
"All our lives we're taught to get in line. The ones who conform never discover." - Undrafted Free Agent and NFL Rushing Leader Arian Foster
by Rip Jersey on Feb 7, 2012 11:29 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
continuency. dang!
"All our lives we're taught to get in line. The ones who conform never discover." - Undrafted Free Agent and NFL Rushing Leader Arian Foster
Thx
"All our lives we're taught to get in line. The ones who conform never discover." - Undrafted Free Agent and NFL Rushing Leader Arian Foster
whew! yeah thanks ;-)
that was getting painful to watch, sorry Rip ;-)
<3
#Texans2011 — Where reality and dreams collide!
~~ Fuzion
"This is a grown dog’s game. Ain’t no puppies out here." ~~ Cushing #56 to Antonio Smith #94
by BattleRedFan on Feb 8, 2012 12:06 AM CST up reply actions
Theres no chance Walter gets cut.
None.
Rectum!? Damn near killed 'em!!!
by theSpaceCityKid on Feb 7, 2012 11:57 AM CST up reply actions
Sure there is.
Cut and re-signed to a cheaper contract. Happens all the time.
"How can an idiot be a policeman? Answer me that!"
-Chief Inspector Dreyfus
not for a starter
would probably try to re-negotiate before the cut, so the re-signed would only be if nobody else wants him after we cut him.
He’d get signed somewhere else.
TJ must throw 30 times for us to win.
It happened to AJ Hawk last year.
"How can an idiot be a policeman? Answer me that!"
-Chief Inspector Dreyfus
you're right
I wonder why they wouldn’t just negotiate an extension?
They took 1 day to hammer out a new deal, so it was all in place.
TJ must throw 30 times for us to win.
Walter isn't good enough
to start anywhere else, no other team is going to say “OMFG! KEVIN WALTER IS AVAILABLE! HE IS A PRETTY GOOD BLOCKER!!!! THAT”S WHAT WE WERE MISSING!! SIGN HIM NOW!!" I’m sure someone would pick him up if he was on the market for long enough, but it’s not like someone would jump on him as soon as he was cut. I think cutting him and re-signing him would be a good option if Kubiak really believes that this team would die without his amazing blocking abilities as his fan club seems to believe.
by Bobbythegreat on Feb 7, 2012 1:23 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
but it isn't as easy as but and resign
the agent and player have to agree to a deal in principle. hell if we did that and then lost him to washington, then what? who is his backup? They could definitely use him and he would probably be paid even more to do the same thing he does here. Now you are stuck with Jacoby as your number 2 and a lot of other guys at 3,4,5, and 6. But we have to cut jacoby because he blows. Now you got johnson and a fuckton of nobodies. real solid plan going into the season.
- Feeling the five stages of grief since 2002.
"It's either gonna make you a man or a coward. One of the two. I'm a be a man. I ain't never seen a coward, heard a coward, coward not in ma
vocabulary." - Lawrence Vickers
"I believe in this "zombie team that won’t fucking die no matter how many body parts you shoot off." We can win this game.
by NoSafetiesNeeded on Feb 7, 2012 2:44 PM CST up reply actions
My point is
Jones and Walter are a couple of nobodies, so if you replaced them with cheaper nobodies, it’s a wash. I don’t think the Texans have to worry about someone jumping up and going nuts over Walter. I think they could cut him and pick him up for less, or just renegotiate his contract to pay him less. No matter what you think, he’s not some great player who is integral to the success of the Texans, he is a passable player who skated by for so long because there were much greater needs than upgrading WR to this point. If we keep him great, if we don’t, so what? I think if we need an extra couple million dollars to keep Mario, we shouldn’t let him go just to keep Walter around. If we have locked up all we plan on doing in FA and Walter happens to still be on the team and we don’t need that money, fine.
by Bobbythegreat on Feb 7, 2012 2:51 PM CST up reply actions
i think that you and i will never see eye to eye on this.
i am backing up kubes in his decision to extend walter because he knows what he brings and it is vital to the team. You must have watched all jacoby highlights or walter lowlights because you seem to think that they are both of the same mold and quality.
they are not. but you go ahead and sign all of the free agent wide receivers and win all of teh souper bowlz.
- Feeling the five stages of grief since 2002.
"It's either gonna make you a man or a coward. One of the two. I'm a be a man. I ain't never seen a coward, heard a coward, coward not in ma
vocabulary." - Lawrence Vickers
"I believe in this "zombie team that won’t fucking die no matter how many body parts you shoot off." We can win this game.
by NoSafetiesNeeded on Feb 7, 2012 2:53 PM CST up reply actions
I agree that we probably won't see eye to eye on
the subject. I think that Walter and Jones are trash WR’s who could both be easily replaced with cheaper players for a minimal dropoff in talent. We’ll just see what happens, maybe your buddy Walter will prove me wrong and be a stud for us next year, or maybe if we cut him he will go somewhere else and decimate all. Anything could happen.
by Bobbythegreat on Feb 7, 2012 3:10 PM CST up reply actions
but if Walter's gone
the stuff he does (and his replacement doesn’t do) won’t be obvious, so it would be easy to point at 5 more receptions and say, “It was a wash,” when the reality could be far different.
TJ must throw 30 times for us to win.
I don't buy in to
the assumption that his replacement would be incapable of blocking.
by Bobbythegreat on Feb 7, 2012 3:51 PM CST up reply actions
not incapable, but not as good? Hurting us enough where his 5 extra catches are worth less to the team?
I just think those differences would be imperceptible, at least to me, to the point where I trust Smithiak to make the right call. And I’d bet they keep Walter, which I believe is the right call.
TJ must throw 30 times for us to win.
I think that it will be comparable
If saving the extra money means keeping Mario or making a FA acquisition that helps the team, it’s worth it. Foster won’t stop being an amazing RB if Walter was replaced with someone else.
by Bobbythegreat on Feb 7, 2012 4:02 PM CST up reply actions
If we have to cut Walter
to sign Mario, its close, but I’d still keep Walter.
I hate dropped balls, and our team seems to catch more than other teams I watch. Oh, and our running game is top notch no matter which back is running.
And Brooks Reid was a rookie who this FO selected. I bet we can get a decent OLB for the rotation in this draft if we have to pass on Mario.
TJ must throw 30 times for us to win.
are we sure about this?
Foster won’t stop being an amazing RB if Walter was replaced with someone else.
What if K Dub has been part of the magic that allows Arian to run as well as he does?
Were there any games where we didn’t have K Dub on the field and Arian still ran perfectly well?
I ask because I have no clue how much Kevin Walter’s blocking affects our running or passing.
#Texans2011 — Where reality and dreams collide!
~~ Fuzion
"This is a grown dog’s game. Ain’t no puppies out here." ~~ Cushing #56 to Antonio Smith #94
by BattleRedFan on Feb 8, 2012 12:47 AM CST up reply actions
Yeah, I'm sure about this
if Walter was a big part of Foster’s success running to that side of the field, he could have a slight decline in his runs to that side, but that’s assuming Walter is the Leach of WR’s and I just don’t believe that at all. Hell even if he was the Leach of WR’s, we replaced Leach with a cheaper model and it worked out alright.
by Bobbythegreat on Feb 8, 2012 12:13 PM CST up reply actions
I could see them signing a new deal
or extension to make his figure more manageable. Walter is getting a little older and it might be worth it to him to have some guaranteed $ over the next 3-4 years with a slightly lower annual figure.
The savings wouldn’t be huge, but it might get close to $1mil this year and next. That would make his cap # a lot easier to swallow for a guy who mostly blocks compared to what a replacement would bring for the same price…and any little bit extra we can get freed up for future cap space helps too
we def should keep Walter
If anything he provides depth and would be an excellent slot option. Jacoby on the other hand should be cut ASAP and not just cause of the muffed punt. Just cause he sucks
by Zukywich08 on Feb 7, 2012 12:48 PM CST via iPhone app up reply actions
I understand your opposing view and welcome it...
I get the notion of pulling a Harrison/Wayne kind of situation in Houston, without the controversial end to one’s career hopefully. It’s a way of drafting I’d, eventually, endorse. If I had to take one of the red flaggers, give me Floyd….he’s easily the most talented of the bunch.
I just don’t believe that the draft choice has to be made on pure speed and stopwatch numbers. That’s never going to jump in my mind for a west coast offense where the greatest receivers in said scheme weren’t lighting up the combine.
"Lord, beer me strength."
this is why alshon has a small chance at least to crack the first round
his interviews and how he looks are huge for him
@THEREALALLENOU on twitter - "The man, the verb, the legend" OU'd
Excuse my ignorance, but
Future WR1 with deep speed vs. todays WR2 or WR3 who can run underneath routes.
Are these mutually exclusive skill sets most of the time? Not being snarky, it’s an honest question.
by JBal on Feb 7, 2012 11:28 AM CST via Android app reply actions
Certainly not
Kendall Wright has great speed but is NOT a future WR1 for the Houston Texans. The fact is, a true no doubt WR1 comes along pretty rarely and are typically gone early (Andre Johnson, Calvin Johnson, Larry Fitzgerald). These guys have it all. After guys like that its a toss up as to how good a kid can become and their skill sets can be made up of any of the qualities that make a good WR.
Rectum!? Damn near killed 'em!!!
by theSpaceCityKid on Feb 7, 2012 11:50 AM CST up reply actions
absolutely not
Sometimes, receivers with just one skill set have the capacity to learn the other skill sets. They just havent been taught them at the college level, depending on the type offense their team ran. Like spacecity said, Sometimes you get gifted players with inherent talent, but those guys usually get drafted early.
If everybody was somebody, then nobody would be anybody - Gilbert and Sullivan
If Floyd falls its a no brainer.
Aside from him it is looking like a very talented group of 2nd tier WRs this year. Look what Torrey Smith did for the Baltimore Ravens this year. They had a great running game a talented WR in Boldin. The second time we played them we felt so inclined to put our CB1 Joseph on Smith and leave Jackson on Boldin with safety help. Theres no DC in his right mind that would do the same to Andre (i dont think) but if not that leaves a CB2 to cover Dwight Jones or Nick Toon or Sanu all game long. Hell I’ll take jumpballs to Alshon and let him go get it over the 5-11 CB2 playin him one on one all day.
Rectum!? Damn near killed 'em!!!
by theSpaceCityKid on Feb 7, 2012 11:28 AM CST reply actions
Great write up! rec'd
It’s the Andre Johnsons that make your passing engine hum.
This I completely agree with. So in a draft where quantity is not required for the Texans to plug multiple gaping holes (like last year), why not move up and get Blackmon? It would be a safer bet and better investment than gambling on lower 1st round “risks” and hoping they become great.
Id ratehr gamble less and trade up for Floyd
if he makes it passed say… the Bears @ 19. Especially if the Browns dont get a WR with their first 1st rounder.
Rectum!? Damn near killed 'em!!!
by theSpaceCityKid on Feb 7, 2012 11:54 AM CST up reply actions
It'll take most of our draft to move up plus next years first round pick.
I think that’s a little too much for one player, especially a WR. We’ve drafted pretty well the last few years in the middle rounds and trading those picks would hurt our future depth. If anything, I think we trade down for more 2-4th round picks. You still get good quality there. We’ve gotten Dameco, Reed, Barwin, Mitchell, Glover, Winston, OD, Tate and Sharpton with those picks. We’ve built a pretty good base with those picks…
"...you may all got hell, and I will go to Texas!"
-Davey Crockett
No edit button blows!
Trade up with Washington at #6 (hey at least it isn’t top 5 money) if Blackmon is still available.
I don't think Blackmon gets past Cleveland at 4
They need some WR’s
"...you may all got hell, and I will go to Texas!"
-Davey Crockett
good point
so that might mean going after the Ram’s #2 spot which Jeff Fisher is considering a trade:
http://stlouis.sbnation.com/st-louis-rams/2012/2/3/2769198/2012-nfl-mock-draft/in/2385364
“There are going to be teams that have some interest in that pick,” Fisher said. "What we do will define the future of this franchise moving forward. If we stay [at the No. 2 pick] who do we take, if we move down who do we take. What if we move down and come back up. That’s going to define the future.
That's a lot of picks to move up to number 2
It would have to be a “Ricky Williams” type trade. I think Washington moves up there anyways to get RG III.
"...you may all got hell, and I will go to Texas!"
-Davey Crockett
If we want an Andre Johnson type to eventually replace 'Dre
we have to likely get up there. We got ’Dre at pick #3
It’s hard to replace him with a lower pick in any draft. Hell it’s hard to replace him with a high pick in most drafts.
yup.
but if he doesn’t pan out you have bigger problems. no depth and more importantly no guys that can learn the system in case of injuries at different points in the season. Plus atlanta didn’t actually light the world on fire with their shiny new receiver.
- Feeling the five stages of grief since 2002.
"It's either gonna make you a man or a coward. One of the two. I'm a be a man. I ain't never seen a coward, heard a coward, coward not in ma
vocabulary." - Lawrence Vickers
"I believe in this "zombie team that won’t fucking die no matter how many body parts you shoot off." We can win this game.
by NoSafetiesNeeded on Feb 7, 2012 2:48 PM CST up reply actions
We should just realize now that we will never have another Andre.
Our offense can still kick ass, but we will never have another Andre.
I wouldn't say never.
But it will probably be a good long while.
Just my $.02
Even duct tape can't fix stupid
if this FO moves up to get a WR
I’ll wear a Cowboys jersey for a week
TJ must throw 30 times for us to win.
Tear off three squares and wipe....
"All our lives we're taught to get in line. The ones who conform never discover." - Undrafted Free Agent and NFL Rushing Leader Arian Foster
by Rip Jersey on Feb 7, 2012 12:28 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
lol
"Some ideas are so stupid that only intellectuals believe them." - George Orwell
I am Barry - I am from Texas
by Barryfromtexas on Feb 7, 2012 12:29 PM CST up reply actions
Right click on the date/time stamp
Copy URL
you can save that to bookmarks, or just save it some place
"Some ideas are so stupid that only intellectuals believe them." - George Orwell
I am Barry - I am from Texas
by Barryfromtexas on Feb 7, 2012 12:30 PM CST up reply actions
Not that I know of
Nothing like the “z” or anything
ask BFD he supposed to know all that stuff
"Some ideas are so stupid that only intellectuals believe them." - George Orwell
I am Barry - I am from Texas
by Barryfromtexas on Feb 7, 2012 12:32 PM CST up reply actions
yes the magical z
Free agency awaits my favorite key…
Does anyone else ever press random keys on here hoping they have some hidden power as well?
/back to Skyrim…
breaking news
MeMongo just got hired as Asst. to the General Manager of the Texans.
What number should I wear?
TJ must throw 30 times for us to win.
Lucky for us
Free Agency is before the draft again.
We can see where we are with our current players, and how much we have available.
If Mario goes elsewhere, or we have enough money vs. the cap after we sign everyone we can, I think we should target a free agent WR who would supplant Jacoby and leave Walter to split time with the new guy.
Then our draft chances of success go up, not having to reach as much. We can target a PR/KR/WR if one falls to us, but he doesn’t have to be half of our WR2 like Jacoby is.
TJ must throw 30 times for us to win.
by texanphil on Feb 7, 2012 11:52 AM CST reply actions 1 recs
The search for our future elite WR has to begin this year, because it might take three or four years to find him. Time’s a-wastin’.
"How can an idiot be a policeman? Answer me that!"
-Chief Inspector Dreyfus
by FreedomRide on Feb 7, 2012 11:58 AM CST reply actions 1 recs
Great write-up
and rec’d.
We are over-reacting to Jacoby’s season destroying play, naturally. But I think his days are numbered here.
The problem with evaluating our current WR crop and their (lack of) production is our offense changed when TJ was forced in. We went “safer” at the FB position, removing a threat of Casey. We ran more. When TJ passed, he was more comfortable with AJ. He didn’t spread the ball around as much as Schaub would have. He was good with OD. But it seemed like he’d rather force it to one of those two than try a third or fourth option.
I don’t think the FO will over-react like we are. I don’t even think we’ll draft a WR in the first two rounds. I’d even go three except we’re drafting so low we may get one late in the third. I just don’t think its as much of a priority to them as it is to us. Kinda like the planetoid NT we all needed, but didn’t end up needing.
TJ must throw 30 times for us to win.
by texanphil on Feb 7, 2012 11:59 AM CST reply actions 4 recs
We are overreacting to Jacoby....but his days are numbered
What am I missing?
"All our lives we're taught to get in line. The ones who conform never discover." - Undrafted Free Agent and NFL Rushing Leader Arian Foster
over-reacting
to the “play”
I assume he’ll be cut, but it won’t be because of one play.
TJ must throw 30 times for us to win.
Really? What is another reason?
"All our lives we're taught to get in line. The ones who conform never discover." - Undrafted Free Agent and NFL Rushing Leader Arian Foster
The rest of his body of work, with the play being the last straw.
Dallas Cowboys, all hat and no cattle since 1996.
"Will it never be noon?" Duke of Orleans to the Dauphin and Constable of France every Sunday before the Texans play.
by Jonathan Fosburgh on Feb 7, 2012 9:50 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Thank you. Exactly my point
with the play being the last straw
Someone please explain to me where we are over-reacting.
season destroying play
last straw
….. This is describing some kind of “end situation” for Jacoby. I couldn’t describe anyone’s actions or situation in any more dire terms, except to say that he murdered somebody. In the scope of sports, he did murder somebody. He murdered our hopes and dreams for this team this season. One play. One moment. I really don’t think we are over-reacting.
"All our lives we're taught to get in line. The ones who conform never discover." - Undrafted Free Agent and NFL Rushing Leader Arian Foster
I couldn’t describe anyone’s actions or situation in any more dire terms, except to say that he murdered somebody. In the scope of sports, he did murder somebody. He murdered our hopes and dreams for this team this season. One play. One moment. I really don’t think we are over-reacting.
Someone please explain to me where we are over-reacting.
we good?
TJ must throw 30 times for us to win.
Andre Johnson’s importance to this team was spelled out last season by just how lost T.J. Yates looked without him down the stretch.
I don’t know if “keeping our offense afloat when our starting QB gets injured” is good enough reason to place a priority on WR. It’s nice to have him on the field, but Schaub also posted a career-best YPA and TD:INT ratio this season despite missing him for most of it.
I think they’ve found a formula that works, and if I were them, I’d do everything I could to build depth and draft potential replacements for positions that were key this season. DE, OLB, O-line, and possibly even QB.
Absolutely agree, except O-line should be changed to tackles.
Interior o-lineman aren’t valued too much by Kubes.
here is an intersting question
pick one
a new #2 CB
a new #2 WR
hmmmmmm
@THEREALALLENOU on twitter - "The man, the verb, the legend" OU'd
since we're losing half of both
I’d take a new #2 CB, because I think Walter plus some new help plus Kubiak = profit.
TJ must throw 30 times for us to win.
by texanphil on Feb 7, 2012 12:12 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
No way they drop another 1st round pick at CB
They won’t admit the K-Jax project dead yet going into his 3rd season, and they won’t like the criticism of using two 1st round picks and a 2nd round pick in three drafts on one position.
not talking about first round or even draft neccesarily
just what if
FA or anywhere in the draft
@THEREALALLENOU on twitter - "The man, the verb, the legend" OU'd
anywhere in the draft you say?
te, te, te, te, te, te, te, and moar te.
/joke circa 2009 or 2010
/still has some juice left
/twss
- Feeling the five stages of grief since 2002.
"It's either gonna make you a man or a coward. One of the two. I'm a be a man. I ain't never seen a coward, heard a coward, coward not in ma
vocabulary." - Lawrence Vickers
"I believe in this "zombie team that won’t fucking die no matter how many body parts you shoot off." We can win this game.
by NoSafetiesNeeded on Feb 7, 2012 2:50 PM CST up reply actions
they can also qualify if they were a FORMER TE
need moar JJ Watt!
#Texans2011 — Where reality and dreams collide!
~~ Fuzion
"This is a grown dog’s game. Ain’t no puppies out here." ~~ Cushing #56 to Antonio Smith #94
Free Agency only
We shouldn’t even consider drafting CBs
Murphy’s 20th Military Law:
If it’s stupid, but it works, it ain’t stupid
"Fuck em all. Go Texans."
by The Night Owl on Feb 8, 2012 2:20 PM CST up reply actions
Excellent Write up
I think the timing is right for the Texans to make a play at WR. This isn’t as much about the Walter/JJ “discussion” as it is about the depth of the draft at WR and the possibility that Dre will soon be on the decline. I am not saying he will decline in 2012 – but any season after that, it can be expected.
Getting a new WR now would be great as he would not have the pressure he would on some teams to “perform right away” which makes me believe that he actually would perform right away.
I don’t know enough about the specifics of this guy or that guy in the draft, but I do have faith that Smithiak can pick a likely candidate.
"Some ideas are so stupid that only intellectuals believe them." - George Orwell
I am Barry - I am from Texas
A few differences of opinion aside
It seems the general BRB hive mind is calling for Floyd if available. If not, it’s anybody’s guess.
by brightshinies on Feb 7, 2012 12:39 PM CST via mobile reply actions
A few differences of opinion aside
It seems the general BRB hive mind is calling for Floyd if available. If not, it’s anybody’s guess.
by brightshinies on Feb 7, 2012 12:39 PM CST via mobile reply actions
I wasn't sure the first time
but I guess you talked me into it…
"...you may all got hell, and I will go to Texas!"
-Davey Crockett
by Drill Sarge on Feb 7, 2012 12:50 PM CST up reply actions 4 recs
We do not need alcoholics in the Texans locker room
3 DUIs when he’s only been legal to drink for 14-15 months……??? Hell No!!!!!!
Murphy’s 20th Military Law:
If it’s stupid, but it works, it ain’t stupid
"Fuck em all. Go Texans."
by The Night Owl on Feb 8, 2012 2:23 PM CST up reply actions
Didn't realize his issues were that severe.
He’d have to give me a hell of an interview and showcasing before I would even consider him.
by brightshinies on Feb 9, 2012 6:23 PM CST up reply actions
is there anyway we could
Sign a big time WR in free agency if we weren’t able to resign Mario? To me the cap is really complicated but I’m pretty sure we could sign someone like Colston and then spend our first round draft pick on BPA or depth. I would be perfectly fine with a receiving core of Andre Colston and Walter
by Zukywich08 on Feb 7, 2012 12:52 PM CST via iPhone app reply actions
It's possible, but Colston is going to have a lot of suiters with a lot of money
Dwayne Bowe and Vincent Jackson are also UFA’s but they seem kinda like toads to me. It’s possible, though.
"...you may all got hell, and I will go to Texas!"
-Davey Crockett
dwayne bowe might be a good pickup
Even if we could get someone like Robert Meachum. If we don’t sign Mario then how much added cap would that give us? Isn’t it close to 20 million?
by Zukywich08 on Feb 7, 2012 1:19 PM CST via iPhone app up reply actions
I like the idea of Colston, I just don't think he'd be in our price range
Murphy’s 20th Military Law:
If it’s stupid, but it works, it ain’t stupid
"Fuck em all. Go Texans."
by The Night Owl on Feb 8, 2012 2:24 PM CST up reply actions
FA + Draft WR
For me the idle situation would be picking up a solid #2 wr in free agency like a stevie johnson or robert meechum then drafting a sppedster/deep threat, move walter to the slot and we have a nyg or GB like wr corp.
by BricAM on Feb 7, 2012 1:07 PM CST via mobile reply actions
Stevie Johnson would be an awesome #2
I like that idea
by Zukywich08 on Feb 7, 2012 1:21 PM CST via iPhone app up reply actions
stevie isnt leaving BUFF
they just gave that huge deal to fitzpatrick. they wont let their only WR leave
@THEREALALLENOU on twitter - "The man, the verb, the legend" OU'd
yea prolly not
But hey where there is a will there is a way!!
by Zukywich08 on Feb 7, 2012 1:32 PM CST via iPhone app up reply actions
said the rapist
/rape is not funny
/harf harf harf ben no rape no funny harf harf harf
- Feeling the five stages of grief since 2002.
"It's either gonna make you a man or a coward. One of the two. I'm a be a man. I ain't never seen a coward, heard a coward, coward not in ma
vocabulary." - Lawrence Vickers
"I believe in this "zombie team that won’t fucking die no matter how many body parts you shoot off." We can win this game.
by NoSafetiesNeeded on Feb 7, 2012 2:51 PM CST up reply actions
nobody thought jojo was leaving the bengals
Looked how that turned out
by Zukywich08 on Feb 7, 2012 1:32 PM CST via iPhone app up reply actions
ouch good point
#Texans2011 — Where reality and dreams collide!
~~ Fuzion
"This is a grown dog’s game. Ain’t no puppies out here." ~~ Cushing #56 to Antonio Smith #94
To our advantage
Is that we are now a winning/playoff team. Which makes us an attractive destination for good free agents on bad teams.
by BricAM on Feb 7, 2012 1:36 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
If he's willing to block I'm okay with this
Not likely, though.
by brightshinies on Feb 7, 2012 1:35 PM CST up reply actions
would also bring those cool TD celebrations
Which is even more reason to let go of jacoby
by Zukywich08 on Feb 7, 2012 1:38 PM CST via iPhone app up reply actions
He could even take over Jacob'ys role as 'designated Twitter fiend'
Blaming God for defeat ranks up there with Jakespeare’s poetry.
by brightshinies on Feb 9, 2012 6:26 PM CST up reply actions
I don't want him
he’s a headcase, blames god for his dropped passes and doesn’t understand TD celebration rules.
^^This.
No dickheads, please.
"How can an idiot be a policeman? Answer me that!"
-Chief Inspector Dreyfus
just cause he celebrates on TD? lol
A lil harsh
by Zukywich08 on Feb 7, 2012 5:06 PM CST via iPhone app up reply actions
No, because he's too dumb to understand the consequences.
Also, there’s still the “blames god” thing.
And the “drops the game winning pass” thing.
Dickhead. No thanks.
"How can an idiot be a policeman? Answer me that!"
-Chief Inspector Dreyfus
I wouldn't call him a dickhead for a few mishaps.
Ignoramus trouble with the law? I’d be more likely to call you a dickhead then.
by brightshinies on Feb 9, 2012 6:30 PM CST up reply actions
I would.
How many of those sort of “mishaps” has Andre or Arian or J Jo had?
"How can an idiot be a policeman? Answer me that!"
-Chief Inspector Dreyfus
J Jo was arrested for possession while in Cincinnati.
Kareem allowed his image to be placed on a porn festival ad. Andre lost his temper and violently layed the smacketh down on live TV (justified or not). These are all mishaps.
Look, I’m not criticizing any of our players. I love them just as much as the next guy on BRB, and all of the aforementioned did nothing to change my high opinion about this team. The fact is, these things happen, and you can find drama pretty much anywhere if you’re looking for it. I’m just saying these events didn’t lead me to the conclusion that the Houston Texans are a team of ‘dickheads’
Stevie has publicly stated he’s done with TD dances, and I guess the difference in opinion lies in whether you believe him or not. Do I think we’ll even make a run for him? Doubtful considering all of the other moves we need to make, so I’m not even sure why I’m so adamantly defending the guy. I just wouldn’t be so quick to write off a player who could be a high-powered contributor to the team simply because he made the mistake of celebrating after a TD in the past.
by brightshinies on Feb 16, 2012 1:13 PM CST up reply actions
Actually
Let’s get Wes Welker. He should be free since he dropped that pass. And who’d want a guy that drops key passes.
by BricAM on Feb 7, 2012 2:37 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
He can't bock well enough
we only want WR’s whose primary talent is blocking ability apparently so we would have no need for someone like him.
by Bobbythegreat on Feb 7, 2012 2:53 PM CST up reply actions
Blocking != cheap shots in the back
Because you know as soon he came here all of the sudden those plays would get flagged
Wait, picture this
Hines Ward with a crack back block on Innegan, leaving Foster an open lane on a screen pass
Murphy’s 20th Military Law:
If it’s stupid, but it works, it ain’t stupid
"Fuck em all. Go Texans."
by The Night Owl on Feb 8, 2012 2:27 PM CST up reply actions
and then two seconds later the refs throw a flag
no thanks
- Feeling the five stages of grief since 2002.
"It's either gonna make you a man or a coward. One of the two. I'm a be a man. I ain't never seen a coward, heard a coward, coward not in ma
vocabulary." - Lawrence Vickers
"I believe in this "zombie team that won’t fucking die no matter how many body parts you shoot off." We can win this game.
by NoSafetiesNeeded on Feb 8, 2012 3:17 PM CST up reply actions
But wouldn't seeing Innegan getting laid out by Ward be worth that flag?
Murphy’s 20th Military Law:
If it’s stupid, but it works, it ain’t stupid
"Fuck em all. Go Texans."
by The Night Owl on Feb 8, 2012 3:41 PM CST up reply actions 3 recs
If he came on the cheap
I actually wouldn’t mind seeing Innegan on this team.
GASP!
“Who just said that?”
by brightshinies on Feb 9, 2012 6:31 PM CST up reply actions
Fuck, man...
…that’s just evil.
"How can an idiot be a policeman? Answer me that!"
-Chief Inspector Dreyfus
No it isn't
Andre would get to beat the “F” out of him every day then, and we’d get to watch.
If everybody was somebody, then nobody would be anybody - Gilbert and Sullivan
"And who’d want a guy that drops key passes."
Kubiak, apparently, since he’s kept Jacoby around this long.
"How can an idiot be a policeman? Answer me that!"
-Chief Inspector Dreyfus
It is clear that we will have to draft one
because we can’t seem to get past the baggage that FA’s have.
If everybody was somebody, then nobody would be anybody - Gilbert and Sullivan
Michael Floyd ,Coby Fleener either one I'm good with the First round pick.
Prediction: 11-5 AFC South champions.
I really like the Fleener idea
A LOT. Of course the one time (other than Casey) that I want Kubiak to actually pick a TE he probably won’t.
It would open up a ton of possibilities on offense, like allowing OD to flex out or play in the slot more. You could let Dreesen go and save some precious money there. It also puts less pressure on whatever WR we pick up later to be a stud.
I do think it’s funny that I’ve read about 1000 posts on here in the last couple of days talking about the importance of WR blocking (and just how good Walter is at it) but for all of that we really don’t get great blocking out of our TE’s
Positional is a good way of saying it
OD rarely knocks anyone out of the way but he at least generally gets in the right spot.
I just think it would be far more valuable to have that type of block coming out of the slot when you have a guy like Fleener in-line. OD in the slot is a matchup problem for most teams with our run/pass threat, just like Dallas Clark in his prime
I really like the idea of Fleener as well
I think he could do great things in this style of offense.
by Bobbythegreat on Feb 7, 2012 3:56 PM CST up reply actions
He gets compared to Jason Witten a lot.
Needless to say a potential Jason Witten here paired with Owen Daniels would potentially make our TE’s as dangerous as Gronkowski and Hernandez.
Prediction: 11-5 AFC South champions.
My thoughts exactly
TE#2 is a bigger part of the team than WR#2. Plus the guy is huge, I have to believe that he would be at least a pretty good blocker while OD is often undersized as a blocker.
by Bobbythegreat on Feb 7, 2012 4:04 PM CST up reply actions
The one thing that stands out to me about Fleener is explosion.
He’s got like 4.5 speed and watching him play in college he can outrun most Safeties/LB’s if he gets manned up by them. Check him out in the Orange Bowl agaisnt VT they played a couple years ago. They had nobody who could keep up with him.
I think he was close to setting a NCAA record for yards per reception last year.
As a receiving target I think he’s more valuable than most of these second tier WR’s in the draft.
Prediction: 11-5 AFC South champions.
by Ethan Matz on Feb 7, 2012 4:09 PM CST up reply actions 3 recs
I agree completely
it’s weird agreeing with the Texans drafting a TE first overall, but it would make me happy.
by Bobbythegreat on Feb 7, 2012 4:10 PM CST up reply actions
I could live with this
Murphy’s 20th Military Law:
If it’s stupid, but it works, it ain’t stupid
"Fuck em all. Go Texans."
by The Night Owl on Feb 8, 2012 2:28 PM CST up reply actions
Definitely
It sounds counter-intuitive but I think we would see better production out of OD if there was another threat at TE who could catch and block.
Dreesen had a great year, but I’m highly skeptical of his numbers. My impression is that teams chose to focus on AJ/OD/Foster etc around the goal line which allowed him to get open, rather than Dreesen magically discovered some ability to play great in the red zone.
I cannot believe this shit.
Really, how many sock puppets does Todd McShay have, anyway?
"How can an idiot be a policeman? Answer me that!"
-Chief Inspector Dreyfus
Care to explain?
I haven’t watched/read anything of ESPN or McShay in months so I have no idea what you are talking about
It's just that when McShay first called Fleener for the Texans, the derisive hoots were deafaning.
Now, all of a sudden, people are actually taking this seriously.
I figured McShay must have begun a campaign to subvert BRB.
"How can an idiot be a policeman? Answer me that!"
-Chief Inspector Dreyfus
Interesting
At least it wasn’t Kiper or I’d have to change my mind immediately
Interesting but I don't follow McShay.
I just found out a couple weeks ago that Coby was going to be in the draft and I’ve gotten to see him a lot the past two years at Stanford. He’s got serious potential to be a real dominant TE.
Plus Stanford’s offense operated a lot like the Texans did so he’d be natural fit.
Just thought he’d be a great prospect for the Texans if Joel leaves.
Prediction: 11-5 AFC South champions.
Fine. He's a good TE prospect.
But TE is not our problem right now.
"How can an idiot be a policeman? Answer me that!"
-Chief Inspector Dreyfus
ironic
I assume you think WR is our problem..
The Fleener pick for this offense would be what other offenses look to their WR2 for. If OD and Fleener are running a route, I think whatever expensive FA WR we got is on the bench, cuz AJ is running the deep post.
TJ must throw 30 times for us to win.
Dunno what's ironic about it.
Our problem is WR, because after AJ we have jack shit for production from that position and AJ is no longer dependable physically.
"How can an idiot be a policeman? Answer me that!"
-Chief Inspector Dreyfus
ironic, because
AJ is the starting WR1, and you are concerned about WR2. WR2 is less relevant in this passing offense than Fleener would be.
So, TE is not your evaluation of the problem, but getting a dern good one may alleviate your problem. Ironic. Or maybe I’m just full of sh!t, could be either one.
TJ must throw 30 times for us to win.
"AJ is the starting WR1"
Sometimes. Recently, not so much.
I also could be FOS, but I think the Andre puts the offense at severe risk because when he goes down, the next man up is shite. And lately, he goes down a lot.
"How can an idiot be a policeman? Answer me that!"
-Chief Inspector Dreyfus
yup
that’s a tough place to be.
We need a high pick to replace him, but what if we get the WR1 skillset, but AJ is healthy for the next 5 years?
TJ must throw 30 times for us to win.
I think texanphil is on to something
1) this was the first year we had Casey doing more full back duties
2) 3/8 of the season was unstable because of losing Schaub and having to play musical chairs at quarterback
3) TEs might have a dropoff in production when they have to practice with so many different QBs
4) WR might have a dropoff in production when they have to practice with so many different QBs
5) increased reliance on the run game forces fewer throws and therefore a smaller sample for us to judge TEs and WRs
I almost wonder if it’s more fair to just judge the production of our TEs and WRs based on the 10 games that Schaub was in vs trying to hold them accountable to so many QB changes + game plan balance changes.
#Texans2011 — Where reality and dreams collide!
~~ Fuzion
"This is a grown dog’s game. Ain’t no puppies out here." ~~ Cushing #56 to Antonio Smith #94
All of that plus playing the AFC North (good defenses) and the three "turtle games" at the end of the year...
and we were 13th in the league in offensive yardage and 10th in offensive scoring.
With Schaub we’ll push the top 5 again even if we just have Walter and JJ at WR. I’d bet on it.
Well recently as in one year in the last four he's missed more than 4 games
And have to say again the offense can still operate at a high level without Andre as opposed to Schaub.
This is a QB league and when the Texans points per game dropped from 27 to 17 and passing yards dropped from 249 to 158 it wasn’t because Andre was hurt.
He’s extremely important but the team won’t fall apart without him on offense.
Prediction: 11-5 AFC South champions.
Won't fall apart,
but won’t be as good, either.
In the NFL, the margin between success and failure is tiny.
"How can an idiot be a policeman? Answer me that!"
-Chief Inspector Dreyfus
It's not about being a "problem".
Because the offense when healthy doesn’t have a lot of problems. WR wasn’t a problem that educed endless complaints until Schaub got hurt and Yates wasn’t able to replicate the success the offense had when Schaub was healthy.
WR has been a thin position under Kubiak but that’s acceptable because it not a position that’s featured a lot outside of Andre or typically is an impact position the majority of the time (unlike the TE position). Just looking back at the first 3 games of 2011 Andre had 21 catches the next closest player had 9. That is by design especially with the defense not giving up nearly 30 points a game. Texans don’t want to throw more than about 25 times a game and those 25 passes get split between the TE,Andre,and Foster then the other WR’s.
So I’d take Fleener as a TE who can motion out to the slot like OD, can block, can out jump defenders, can out run LB’s/Safeties and would be a potential Shannon Shapre type TE here like what Kubiak had as O coordinator in Denver.
Prediction: 11-5 AFC South champions.
Yeah cool thing about OD was that last season was his highest total in receiving yards since 2008.
Would have been higher if not for the QB situation after week 10.
Reason I think Texans MIGHT go this direction is because of how the way the offense has changed in philosophy. No more 34+ passes a game. More running and use of a methodical passing attack with PA/Bootleg deep passes off the run game. They don’t use those little shifty WR’s like Kendall Wright much at all. Kubiak likes the tall WR’s on offense. If Joel leaves then maybe they go Fleener which would be a definite Day 1 upgrade to me.
6-6 can run 4.5 that’s basically a slightly slower WR with far better blocking ability and diversity.
Prediction: 11-5 AFC South champions.
I'm not complaining about OD's production
I hope it didn’t come across as that, I just think he’s capable of even more. Completely agree on the change in scheme and philosophy and that’s why I place more emphasis on a solid #2 TE than a shifty slot WR
Nah didn't think you were complaining just noting OD had his best season in 3 years even after losing Schaub week 10.
Prediction: 11-5 AFC South champions.
lot of factors
TJ relied on AJ, until he went down, and OD became his friend.
And TJ didn’t exactly spread the ball around when the games counted. He forced it to AJ and OD. Luckily they’re both pretty good at football.
TJ must throw 30 times for us to win.
Well only once in the 7 games he played in after Schaub got hurt
did OD have more than 35 yards in one game. Compared to the first 10 when he had 5 games over 60 yards receiving. I didn’t think TJ really did a good job finding him (or becoming his friend) except that Bengals game where OD had 7 catches for 100 yards.
And of course being a rookie without the full offense at his disposal was the reason for that.
Prediction: 11-5 AFC South champions.
BE-SF game
doesn’t count.
And in the first three games, he had AJ, I believe.
Small sample size remaining, but those two playoff games I remember him forcing it to OD and AJ before looking anywhere else.
That’s the way I woulda done it, and he had good success with that until the last 2 mins of the Baltimore game.
TJ must throw 30 times for us to win.
"Another" TE who can catch and block...
Implies that OD can block. And I think Dreessen’s incredible production per route in the passing game is a result of his blocking ability (and some clever play-calling). He blocks enough (and does it well) to the point that opposing defenses expect him to stay on the line. We send him on lots of delayed routes, too, which catches defenders by surprise.
I love me some OD, but I think he’s fairly one dimensional. If anything, he’s the guy I’d replace in certain situations (goal-line and short yardage, namely).
Joel doesn't stay on the line, he jumps off it too early. ;P
Dallas Cowboys, all hat and no cattle since 1996.
"Will it never be noon?" Duke of Orleans to the Dauphin and Constable of France every Sunday before the Texans play.
by Jonathan Fosburgh on Feb 7, 2012 8:16 PM CST up reply actions
Touchet, salesman.
He was a bit penalty-happy this year. Hopefully he’ll cut down on that next year, though. He’s a damn good all-around player. Those red-zone false starts are killer, though.
Actually, I only remember the boneheaded penalties by Joel.
One of then in a meaningless game, and one in the playoffs.
Dallas Cowboys, all hat and no cattle since 1996.
"Will it never be noon?" Duke of Orleans to the Dauphin and Constable of France every Sunday before the Texans play.
by Jonathan Fosburgh on Feb 7, 2012 8:42 PM CST up reply actions
The two boneheaded penalties that is.
Dallas Cowboys, all hat and no cattle since 1996.
"Will it never be noon?" Duke of Orleans to the Dauphin and Constable of France every Sunday before the Texans play.
by Jonathan Fosburgh on Feb 7, 2012 8:50 PM CST up reply actions
yeah, but that meaningless game
woulda been sweet to win with our scrubs.
TJ must throw 30 times for us to win.
He damned near killed that great opening drive against the Stealers all by himself.
I remember saying some very unkind things about him and his mommie.
"How can an idiot be a policeman? Answer me that!"
-Chief Inspector Dreyfus
Now that it has been mentioned, I remember the drive.
Just not the specific penalties.
Dallas Cowboys, all hat and no cattle since 1996.
"Will it never be noon?" Duke of Orleans to the Dauphin and Constable of France every Sunday before the Texans play.
by Jonathan Fosburgh on Feb 7, 2012 9:40 PM CST up reply actions
Two holding penalties on Dreesen.
"How can an idiot be a policeman? Answer me that!"
-Chief Inspector Dreyfus
anyway we could get him in the second?
Or will it have to be in the first?
by Zukywich08 on Feb 7, 2012 5:08 PM CST via iPhone app up reply actions
I think we'd have to trade up into the early 2nd or trade out of the 1st to get him in the 2nd round
Murphy’s 20th Military Law:
If it’s stupid, but it works, it ain’t stupid
"Fuck em all. Go Texans."
by The Night Owl on Feb 8, 2012 2:32 PM CST up reply actions
a TE in the 1st?
I don’t understand why would we even draft a te at all OD,casey, and dreesen who would most likely be back not to mention any TE who we draft would not start over OD it would be purely for depth.
this whole patriot thing with having 2 stellar TE is messing with peoples mind, just remember who won the game a WR.
Sam I don't like you green eggs and ham, Sam I am
by RedWhitePaws on Feb 7, 2012 11:38 PM CST up reply actions
it's not a bad idea to me
We run a lot of 2 TE formations and adding a bigger threat than OD would cause so many miss matches. In our offense we throw a lot of checks own passes to move the chains and TEs are perfect for that. Casey was playing all around last year and me personally doesn’t think Dressen will be back. Fleener would be a perfect fit in this offense
by Zukywich08 on Feb 8, 2012 2:20 AM CST via iPhone app up reply actions
I don't see Dreesen coming back
I think Knapp will have Oakland throw some money at him to bring him in. Oakland doesn’t have the best group of TEs, & having Dreesen behind Kevin Boss would help them out
Murphy’s 20th Military Law:
If it’s stupid, but it works, it ain’t stupid
"Fuck em all. Go Texans."
by The Night Owl on Feb 8, 2012 2:34 PM CST up reply actions
Good point about Knapp
I think they really missed Zach Miller this past year
I don’t understand why would we even draft a te at all OD,casey, and dreesen
I didn’t say it in that particular post but I have said Fleener IF Joel didn’t return for whatever reason which is a definite possibility if the team feels it can go in a different direction (like letting Joel go,elevating Graham to the second TE spot and drafting a late round TE to fill that void). Or of course targeting and drafting Fleener.
James Casey is a Fullback not a TE. Yes he can motion out and catch passes but that was a pretty small part of his game due to injury or what not last year.
this whole patriot thing with having 2 stellar TE is messing with peoples mind, just remember who won the game a WR.
How is having the second highest scoring offense and second rated offense(yards) in 2011 “messing” with my head?
I remember Eli Manning making big throw after big throw to his WR’s in that game and the Pats WR’s dropping passes oh and Bradshaw (a RB) scoring the GAME WINNING TD,even if he meant to kneel to burn more clock (see that can be flipped around depending on what angle you want to argue from).
Hell the Pats got to the SB (Texans didn’t) with that great TE duo and their defense wasn’t even good.
And having great WR’s or WR corps (Packers,Saints) doesn’t mean anything. Look at the 49ers who beat the Saints with their number one passing threat (a Tight End) making the game winning play and being the best receiving option on the field that day (not to mention the second best option being the Saints Tight End).
So a TE in the first round who would be a natural fit in this offense and has a higher potential ceiling than Owen Daniels (a pro bowl caliber TE) wouldn’t be a bad pick. In fact it be a great pick IMO.
Prediction: 11-5 AFC South champions.

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